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jtakacs · 06-12-2011, 05:08 PM

my goal is to get this dry as a bone, mash it low at 149 for 90 minutes, pitch all brett-b and brett-c simultaneously, each with a separate starter... i want black, but no roast characteristic so the carafa III will get pulverized and added at the last 10 minutes for mash. i wouldn't mind a hint of acidity from the carafa. ultimately the goal is dark, dry, and crisp.

i'm thinking of letting it open ferment spontaneously for a day or two before pitching yeast, but i'll probably come to my senses and just direct pitch... it'll be fermented warm (75-80).

6.00 lb Pilsner (2 Row) Bel (2.0 SRM) Grain 51.90 %
2.00 lb Munich Malt (9.0 SRM) Grain 17.30 %
1.00 lb Rye Malt (4.7 SRM) Grain 8.65 %
0.50 lb Caramel Wheat Malt (46.0 SRM) Grain 4.33 %
0.06 lb Carafa III (525.0 SRM) Grain 0.52 %
1.00 oz Styrian Goldings [5.40 %] (60 min) Hops 17.9 IBU
1.00 oz Styrian Goldings [5.40 %] (15 min) Hops 8.9 IBU
0.50 oz Saaz [4.00 %] (15 min) Hops 3.3 IBU
0.50 oz Saaz [4.00 %] (10 min) Hops 2.4 IBU
0.50 oz Saaz [4.00 %] (5 min) Hops 1.3 IBU
0.50 oz Saaz [4.00 %] (0 min) Hops -
2.00 lb Candi Sugar, Dark (275.0 SRM) Sugar 17.30 % @ Flameout
1.00 oz Saaz [4.00 %] (Dry Hop 7 days) Hops

Est Original Gravity: 1.062 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.005 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 7.44 %
Bitterness: 33.8 IBU
Est Color: 41.6 SRM

thoughts? my concern is that the alcohol will just overpower the yeast characteristics and was thinking of making it about 6.5% instead, but keeping the same ingredient ratio.

dwarven_stout · 06-12-2011, 06:45 PM

Looks tasty. I love rye in a saison. With this recipe, I'd be tempted to up the rye a touch. If you want it black, I'd up the carafa as well- 1 oz isn't going to give you anything more than brown. Capping the mash like you're planning is a good way to go. You could also use Carafa Special, which is dehusked to give you a little of the chocolate without the bitterness and roast. I think the gravity is fine as-is, but it certainly wouldn't hurt if you decide to go lower.

pohldogg · 06-12-2011, 06:50 PM

You may not get dry as a bone with brett only. Most people report brett alone attenuation similar to most sacch, in the 70-80% range. I just finished up an amber ale fermented with brett b and did a little better, 1086 down to 1010. This was mashed low and had 2 lbs sugar. If you got 80-90% aa you'd still be looking at 1007 to 1012. To get super low for your saison brett may not be up to the task, but sounds like a good beer though.

jtakacs · 06-12-2011, 07:06 PM

i was hoping the 2 lbs of dark belgian sugar would dry it down and give me the color with the bit of carafa... good ideas on the dehusked and upping the rye.

typically i get 80+ attenuation with just about every yeast for whatever reason, so i have high hopes for the intentional overpitch of brett c and b bringing it down to mid 80s attenuation which puts me at 1.008... getting it to 8 would be good for me. maybe the rye, low mash and brett will simulate the dryness that isn't there.

dwarven_stout · 06-12-2011, 07:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jtakacs

i was hoping the 2 lbs of dark belgian sugar would dry it down and give me the color with the bit of carafa... good ideas on the dehusked and upping the rye.

typically i get 80+ attenuation with just about every yeast for whatever reason, so i have high hopes for the intentional overpitch of brett c and b bringing it down to mid 80s attenuation which puts me at 1.008... getting it to 8 would be good for me. maybe the rye, low mash and brett will simulate the dryness that isn't there.

Oh, I totally just skipped over the sugar. That'll help, for sure.

Calder · 06-13-2011, 01:19 AM

Use some acid malt, Brett likes an acid wort to work well.

You want more dark malts to get a dark beer. I'm planning on using some Coffee malt in something similar in a few weeks.

Vance71975 · 06-13-2011, 07:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jtakacs

my goal is to get this dry as a bone, mash it low at 149 for 90 minutes, pitch all brett-b and brett-c simultaneously, each with a separate starter... i want black, but no roast characteristic so the carafa III will get pulverized and added at the last 10 minutes for mash. i wouldn't mind a hint of acidity from the carafa. ultimately the goal is dark, dry, and crisp.

i'm thinking of letting it open ferment spontaneously for a day or two before pitching yeast, but i'll probably come to my senses and just direct pitch... it'll be fermented warm (75-80).

6.00 lb Pilsner (2 Row) Bel (2.0 SRM) Grain 51.90 %
2.00 lb Munich Malt (9.0 SRM) Grain 17.30 %
1.00 lb Rye Malt (4.7 SRM) Grain 8.65 %
0.50 lb Caramel Wheat Malt (46.0 SRM) Grain 4.33 %
0.06 lb Carafa III (525.0 SRM) Grain 0.52 %
1.00 oz Styrian Goldings [5.40 %] (60 min) Hops 17.9 IBU
1.00 oz Styrian Goldings [5.40 %] (15 min) Hops 8.9 IBU
0.50 oz Saaz [4.00 %] (15 min) Hops 3.3 IBU
0.50 oz Saaz [4.00 %] (10 min) Hops 2.4 IBU
0.50 oz Saaz [4.00 %] (5 min) Hops 1.3 IBU
0.50 oz Saaz [4.00 %] (0 min) Hops -
2.00 lb Candi Sugar, Dark (275.0 SRM) Sugar 17.30 % @ Flameout
1.00 oz Saaz [4.00 %] (Dry Hop 7 days) Hops

Est Original Gravity: 1.062 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.005 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 7.44 %
Bitterness: 33.8 IBU
Est Color: 41.6 SRM

thoughts? my concern is that the alcohol will just overpower the yeast characteristics and was thinking of making it about 6.5% instead, but keeping the same ingredient ratio.

My gut says add a Saison yeast along with the 2 brett strains. Such as a French or Belgian Saison yeast. That should help you get it ultra dry and provide the Saison flavors. Also unless your worried about head retention, i would mash even a bit lower at say 145 and mash it much longer say 3 hours, this will provide an even more fermentable wort.

**weremichael** · 06-13-2011, 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vance71975

My gut says add a Saison yeast along with the 2 brett strains. Such as a French or Belgian Saison yeast. That should help you get it ultra dry and provide the Saison flavors. Also unless your worried about head retention, i would mash even a bit lower at say 145 and mash it much longer say 3 hours, this will provide an even more fermentable wort.

I agree about pitching a saison yeast with the brett. strains. It might be taking you in a direction that you don't want to go, but I would suggest WLP670 American Farmhouse. It has been purported that it is Lost Abbey's saison blend of sacc. and brett.

I also agree that you should put some acid malt into your grist bill, because brett performs better within an acidic wort. Remember, brett. operates a lot like sacc. when it's by itself.

jtakacs · 06-13-2011, 09:31 PM

gonna try to avoid sacc although i think i'll do a mid-summer saison (conventional). going to take some of the tips above, i'm ditching the wheat, doubling the rye, adding the acid, flip flopping my munich/pils malt bill and going to let this open ferment for 24 hours (maybe 48) before pitching anything. also swapping out the belgian candy sugar for 2 lbs brown sugar - i can just buy that and it has a higher sugar content so it'll dry it out more. just hoping having to up the carafa to 8 oz. doesn't make it too bitter being that dry.

mash at 145 for two hours and see what happens...

dwarven_stout · 06-14-2011, 03:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by weremichael

I also agree that you should put some acid malt into your grist bill, because brett performs better within an acidic wort. Remember, brett. operates a lot like sacc. when it's by itself.

That's really only true when it's young. All of my 100% brett beers eventually pick up that "brett" wild flavor. In my experience, Brett C starts very tropical fruity (without O2) and light fruit/tart (with O2), whereas Brett B starts spicy (without O2). I haven't tried Brett B with a lot of O2. All of those beers got a lager-sized pitch, fermented quickly down to ~78-84% attenuation with a clean finish, and over the course of 8-10 months got funky.