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Old 01-07-2014, 05:19 PM   #21
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i wonder how important it is to steep/mash the oats/grains at a given temp, vs. just boiling them. it's not like you are converting the starches. you're just getting them out of the grain and into solution.

i recently did a split batch, based on jamil's oud bruin recipe. half is being soured as a flanders brown, the other half is on its way to becoming a BDSA (2 beers 1 brew!).

for the oud bruin half, i boiled up a mix of steel cut and flaked oats in a pot for 10 mins, strained, and poured the resulting oat-juice into the secondary along with the bugs. i'm not convinced that 180*F is any better, or worse, than a full boil. boiling takes less effort
I'd be inclined to think that it doesn't matter that much. For me, it's super simple to just toss in a mesh bag of oats when it gets over 180F and take it out just before it boils. The overall idea is to get unconverted starch in to the beer for the brett and lacto to eat over time.
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Old 01-08-2014, 03:08 AM   #22
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The overall idea is to get unconverted starch in to the beer for the brett and lacto to eat over time.
And to clarify for my sake...this is essentially emulating some of the benefits of a turbid mash?
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Old 01-08-2014, 03:23 AM   #23
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And to clarify for my sake...this is essentially emulating some of the benefits of a turbid mash?
Yes, I think so.
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Old 01-08-2014, 07:28 AM   #24
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Yes, I think so.
Yep. Turbid mashing is a way to produce a starchy wort with barley and wheat. The Cantillon method is to basically do a few step mashes, and for each step you take a portion of the wort and boil it, adding it back in. Because of all the extra water used, you end up having to boil for like 6 hours... why do all that work when we can just steep some oats and not allow their starches to convert?
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Old 01-09-2014, 12:47 AM   #25
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I'm following with interest.

I'm pleased with my sours, but would be interested in trying this to see if there is any significant difference (maybe it will end up too sour).

I'll be brewing a sour in a couple of weeks. Not sure whether to toss in a tablespoon of flour, or a cup of oats in the boil.

Anyone care to say why one may be better than the other? And, is that enough, it will be an 8 gallon batch.

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Old 01-09-2014, 02:00 AM   #26
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I'm following with interest.

I'm pleased with my sours, but would be interested in trying this to see if there is any significant difference (maybe it will end up too sour).

I'll be brewing a sour in a couple of weeks. Not sure whether to toss in a tablespoon of flour, or a cup of oats in the boil.

Anyone care to say why one may be better than the other? And, is that enough, it will be an 8 gallon batch.
My thoughts is that it would be a bit funkier as the months/years go by, and probably not as sour (at least from the Brett breaking down the oats/flour). For example, I recently drank a 2012 and 2013 Cantillon Oude Gueuze. The 2012 was perhaps a bit more sour, but more over it was considerably funkier than the 2013.

I would also be interested in the difference between flour and oats. Perhaps one is easier than the other for the Brett to break down, which could cause some differences over time?
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Old 01-09-2014, 03:27 AM   #27
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i believe that brett can't break down starch. the idea behind adding starch is that lacto and pedio can eat them, but brett can't. the bugs take a lot longer to do their thing, and while they get set up typically brett has already eaten all the sugars. so by adding some starch you're ensuring there is food left over for the bugs.

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Old 01-09-2014, 03:57 AM   #28
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i believe that brett can't break down starch. the idea behind adding starch is that lacto and pedio can eat them, but brett can't. the bugs take a lot longer to do their thing, and while they get set up typically brett has already eaten all the sugars. so by adding some starch you're ensuring there is food left over for the bugs.
I can't claim to know much about this, but from what I've read I don't think that's true. For instance, in Wild Brews Jeff Sparrow says this:

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Brettanomyces are superattenuating yeasts. They will continue to slowly consume sugars---even dextrins that are unfermentable to Saccharomyces---for many years. The behavior of superattenuation is attributed to, in part, the ability of beta-Glucosidase inherent in Brettanomyces to break down starch and dextrins and liberate glucose. (p.107)
Chad Yakobson also talks about this in these slides. If you go to page 6, he talks about beta-glucosidase being able to break down glycosidic compounds, which I think means starches.
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Old 01-09-2014, 04:14 AM   #29
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Yeah, I've read a lot of posts on here saying that Lacto and Pedio break down the longer chain sugars and starches, but from what I have heard from Mike T and Chad Y, it's the Brett that does this. According to Chad, Brett is so strong that it can even break down cellulose (oak). Here are some talks Chad gave about just how aggressive Brett is:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AjVOzBtE27Y
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Swv294Xkbq8

In addition, I've experienced and read about people who pitch Lacto later in secondary or at the same time as the primary yeast, and it always seems to result in not much sourness. Perhaps the Lacto is dieing due to the alcohol, and is too slow to consume the sugars, but in my experience Lacto eats the simple sugars just fine when it's by itself. That's why the method of pitching Lacto for 1 week before pitching Sacch in Berliner Weisse works so well for getting good sourness. If you pitch them together, in my experience the Sacch out competes the Lacto and consumes all of the simple sugars, leaving the Lacto with not enough food to make the beer sour enough. It's the same reason people use the method of pitching Lacto 4-7 days before they pitch Sacch in Berliner Weisse.

I don't know as much about Pedio, and need to do more reading, but I have read that Pedio contributes more sourness longer term than Lacto, which leads me to believe it can break down the more complex molecules. Anyone have more detailed information on Pedio in particular on this subject?

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Old 01-09-2014, 05:29 AM   #30
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I don't know as much about Pedio, and need to do more reading, but I have read that Pedio contributes more sourness longer term than Lacto, which leads me to believe it can break down the more complex molecules. Anyone have more detailed information on Pedio in particular on this subject?
I'm curious about this too. Wild Brews just says that it ferments glucose into lactic acid.

Perhaps the reason pedio contributes more sourness in the long term is that it is more resilient. Lactobacillus stop reproducing at a ph of 3.8, whereas pedio can reproduce down to 3.4.
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