Witbier with Pilsner - vigorous boil or not?

snailsongs · 05-29-2009, 01:37 AM

I have been taught (by all of you, thanks) that pilsner malt usually benefits from a longer vigorous boil to drive off the DMS. I have also read that you don't want a long vigorous boil for a belgian Wit, yet most wit recipes have a substantial amount of Pilsen malt in them. so, what kind of boil/procedure is best for a wit? a long vigorous boil, a short simmering boil, or some other type of boil?

**Yooper** · 05-29-2009, 01:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by snailsongs

I have been taught (by all of you, thanks) that pilsner malt usually benefits from a longer vigorous boil to drive off the DMS. I have also read that you don't want a long vigorous boil for a belgian Wit, yet most wit recipes have a substantial amount of Pilsen malt in them. so, what kind of boil/procedure is best for a wit? a long vigorous boil, a short simmering boil, or some other type of boil?

I'm sorry to seem a bit thick, but I've never heard that you don't want to boil a wit vigorously. Is that maybe for extract recipes that you want to keep light colored? That's a new one to me. As far as I'm concerned, a rolling boil is a rolling boil. "simmering" isn't a boil at all. For proper hops utilization, as well and the driving off of DMS (and the precursors), a rolling boil is the way to go.

**Saccharomyces** · 05-29-2009, 02:51 AM

Pierre Celis advocates a gentle simmer for a Witbier. Since he is the father of the modern Wit style, I follow his lead.

snailsongs · 05-29-2009, 10:07 AM

see, guys. that's exactly why I'm confused.

Sacc, if you run a gentle simmer, do you do it for 60 or 90 minutes? probably doesn't matter much either way, actually.

Yooper, I'll counter with some thickness of my own and note that I recall you once said something to the effect of "give me and IPA or an APA, no F@cking Wits for me!"

so, with all due respect (and really, I have seen that you are one of the most polite and helpful people on this board) what are you doing here?

I think I'll make my wit and purge it of DMS....I'd rather have it slightly darker and more carmelized than end up with cooked corn flavors.....

flyangler18 · 05-29-2009, 10:21 AM

Cross-posted from my recipe thread:

Sorry I just missed this until now! A 90 minute boil is often prescribed for driving off DMS because of the half-life of DMS which is approximately 40 minutes. Boiling hydrolizes SMM into DMS which can be carried off, but I find quick cooling to be far more important. I've brewed this recipe many times and I've never detected any DMS despite defying common knowledge re: a vigorous boil. Likewise, my Berliner Weisse recipe has lots of Pils with only a 15 minute boil; no DMS.

Now, it is certainly possible that these styles may, by design, have appreciable levels of DMS, but there are also characteristics vis-a-vis the yeast in a Witbier and the lactic sourness in a BW that could well be obscuring the DMS from detection.

Bob · 05-29-2009, 12:54 PM

Don't worry about it, snail. Not only does practical experience tell you not to worry about it, the science of DMS tells you the same thing.

DMS, while having a relatively low flavor threshold, is really only a problem in lager beers, especially lighter, high-adjunct lagers, where very little is available to mask the cooked-corn flavor. In beers that have more flavor impactors present - dark beers, spiced beers, beers, in short, with more than Pils malt and a touch of hops - DMS flavors if any are masked by the other flavors.

Witbier, with its spices, complex grist, lactic sourness and yeast-driven funk, is one of the last beers you should worry about DMS.

This is one of those bugbears that worry homebrewers way too much. DMS and HSA should be completely stricken from the homebrewing literature and amateur-brewers' memories purged.

In fact, boiling to drive off DMS - which isn't a something you should be worried about - will make an inferior Witbier. A vigorous boil will drive off crucial aromatics. It will also encourage break formation, precipitating in the break the very proteins you worked so hard to put in the beer, the very proteins that remaining in suspension make 'white beer' milky white.

Cheerfully,

Bob

**Yooper** · 05-29-2009, 01:09 PM

I've learned so much from this thread! Thanks for everyone's superior wisdom and knowledge!

**Saccharomyces** · 05-29-2009, 01:10 PM

Thanks Bob for the comments you said it better than I could.

Quote:

Originally Posted by snailsongs

Sacc, if you run a gentle simmer, do you do it for 60 or 90 minutes? probably doesn't matter much either way, actually.

I do 90 minutes.

My information is secondhand from a local microbrewer who has consulted with Pierre, who still comes to Austin from Belgium a few times a year to visit his daughter. He mashes in at 125*F, rests there for about an hour, ramps up to 154*F, rests there for a half hour, ramps to 165*F for mashout. Boils for 90 at a bare simmer, no kettle finings. Coriander is hand crushed using a rolling pin on baking sheets. He adds the spices at knockout and begins running off to the chiller. No whirlpool, his system has an inline filter to remove the break. He chills to 65*F, pitches a bunch of yeast, and shuts off the chiller, letting the fermentation raise the temp in the fermenter up to about 92*F. Strain used is Wyeast 3944. It's a really, REALLY good Wit... so I try to replicate his process as much as possible at home when I brew mine.

snailsongs · 05-29-2009, 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saccharomyces

Thanks Bob for the comments you said it better than I could.

I do 90 minutes.

My information is secondhand from a local microbrewer who has consulted with Pierre, who still comes to Austin from Belgium a few times a year to visit his daughter. He mashes in at 125*F, rests there for about an hour, ramps up to 154*F, rests there for a half hour, ramps to 165*F for mashout. Boils for 90 at a bare simmer, no kettle finings. Coriander is hand crushed using a rolling pin on baking sheets. He adds the spices at knockout and begins running off to the chiller. No whirlpool, his system has an inline filter to remove the break. He chills to 65*F, pitches a bunch of yeast, and shuts off the chiller, letting the fermentation raise the temp in the fermenter up to about 92*F. Strain used is Wyeast 3944. It's a really, REALLY good Wit... so I try to replicate his process as much as possible at home when I brew mine.

wow.....just reading your description of the process makes the beer sound really tasty! I'm not a wit expert (or any kind of brewing expert...yet - though not for lack of interest or effort), having only even tried Blue Moon (only wit-inspired) and Hoegarden, but I've got the yeast here, the basic ingredients and I'm thirsty for a light summer brew.....this gives me a lot to think about and plan for.

flyangler18 · 05-29-2009, 02:00 PM

Hoegaarden is the benchmark for the style, so you've started in the right place, Snail!