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Old 09-14-2011, 02:29 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by wonderbread23 View Post
I gotta disagree. I've done a ton of competition brewing and judges are always looking for something a bit darker than what you'd get with vienna malt alone. 100% vienna puts you in the 7.5 SRM range.... judges are looking for beers in the 12-14 SRM range. My latest vienna (2nd BOS in the last competition it was in) was a blend of vienna, munich, and pilsner placing it at 10.73 SRM. The only detracting comment I got on it from judges was that it was too light.

That's likely because the judges don't know what a Vienna is. IMO most of the homebrew judges are merely offshoots of the homebrew population who tend to give more notice to beers that are bigger, darker, hoppier or in some way make themselves standout from other beers in the group. Right or wrong, that is the reality so if you're are looking to impress judges in a typical homebrew contest it's probably a good idea to exceed at least some of the style guidelines. However, that does not mean it's a better beer nor does it mean the beer is more authentic. With that said I will stand by my original statement and opinion that the best Vienna will be made with 100% Vienna malt or close to it.
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Old 09-14-2011, 03:14 AM   #12
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i assume 100% vienna would work well with an ale with similar specs as the lager..?...i don't have a lagering set up but love the idea of all vienna

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Old 09-14-2011, 03:42 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigEd View Post
That's likely because the judges don't know what a Vienna is. IMO most of the homebrew judges are merely offshoots of the homebrew population who tend to give more notice to beers that are bigger, darker, hoppier or in some way make themselves standout from other beers in the group. Right or wrong, that is the reality so if you're are looking to impress judges in a typical homebrew contest it's probably a good idea to exceed at least some of the style guidelines. However, that does not mean it's a better beer nor does it mean the beer is more authentic. With that said I will stand by my original statement and opinion that the best Vienna will be made with 100% Vienna malt or close to it.
Well... but what is authentic? I have never seen a true Vienna lager beer. To my knowledge, there are no Continental versions, craft brewed examples tend to be conjectures of what maybe a Vienna maybe was 100 years ago, and the most commonly accepted versions (Dos Equis Amber, Negra Modelo, TJ Vienna, etc.) tend to be sweeter and darker than what a 100% vienna malt beer (of this gravity) would end up being.
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Old 09-14-2011, 04:49 AM   #14
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I agree with both of you, a true vienna would be all vienna, but a competition winner is a mix or darker and hoppier varieties, then again how boring would an all vienna be? The more complex the beer is the better it is IMO. Id say when you make a beer in a certain style it is usually a reference more than a limit to what to include or not to include, basically this beer is better suited as a European Amber Lager, and no sub category, also I'm constantly changing this recipe according to further research and everyones opionions, I don't plan on making this until novemberish since my lager fridge is currently in use with a doppelbock, but to really get the current recipe go to http://www.beertools.com/html/recipe.php?view=11348

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Old 09-14-2011, 05:09 AM   #15
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I strongly disagree that more complexity equals a better beer.

I would not dry-hop a Vienna.

I would not add any caramalt, with the possible exception of MAYBE tiny amounts of caramunich (or Carafa, but that doesn't count).

The Jamil Show on VL with Ray Daniels may be illuminating.

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Old 09-14-2011, 03:24 PM   #16
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Boston lager is a vienna and its dry hopped

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Old 09-14-2011, 06:38 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigEd View Post
That's likely because the judges don't know what a Vienna is. IMO most of the homebrew judges are merely offshoots of the homebrew population who tend to give more notice to beers that are bigger, darker, hoppier or in some way make themselves standout from other beers in the group. Right or wrong, that is the reality so if you're are looking to impress judges in a typical homebrew contest it's probably a good idea to exceed at least some of the style guidelines. However, that does not mean it's a better beer nor does it mean the beer is more authentic. With that said I will stand by my original statement and opinion that the best Vienna will be made with 100% Vienna malt or close to it.
This guy gets it.

I keep one tap reserved for my Vienna Lager, which is 100% Weyermann Vienna and a 60min addition of Perle, shooting for 20 IBU's and 12.5ºP, w/ Ayinger's yeast. And its one damn fine beer.

If you want it to fit into the BJCP style throw 2oz's of carafa, even though I think the BJCP standards for color on that style of beer are wrong.
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Boston lager is a vienna and its dry hopped
No, Boston Lager is an American Lager.
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Old 09-14-2011, 09:42 PM   #18
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No, Boston Lager is an American Lager.
According to all the top beer rating websites its a vienna lager, just because its brewed in America doesn't make it an American lager. Even though it contains 0% vienna malt its still categorized as so. I'm not the one categorizing it but other than containing 0 vienna malt it meets all the category requirements of viennas
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Old 09-14-2011, 10:53 PM   #19
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Boston lager is a vienna
No it isn't. I keep seeing this pop up from time to time and maybe the erroneous belief that Sam Adams Lager is a Vienna is part of the confusion. Does anybody know the origin of this? Sam Adams Lager does not fit tightly within the style guidelines but it definitely not a Vienna. It's a German pils with medium crystal malt added, a commercial version of Koch's old homebrew recipe.
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Old 09-14-2011, 11:07 PM   #20
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A Vienna lager should be 100% Vienna malt, in my opinion!

I made Bradsul's version: http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f59/brad...a-lager-80356/ the last time I made one. It's wonderful!

If BJCP judges gig a Vienna lager made with Vienna malt, then they should be kicked in the pants!

Description: http://www.bjcp.org/2008styles/style03.html#1a
American versions can be a bit stronger, drier and more bitter, while European versions tend to be sweeter. Many Mexican amber and dark lagers used to be more authentic, but unfortunately are now more like sweet, adjunct-laden American Dark Lagers.
Profile: Light to medium body. Toasty flavor and aroma characteristic of vienna malt. Low to medium noble hops aroma and flavor. Reddish amber to light brown color. No ester or fruitiness. Very low diacytl.
Ingredients: Vienna malt provides a lightly toasty and complex, melanoidin-rich malt profile. As with Oktoberfests, only the finest quality malt should be used, along with Continental hops (preferably noble varieties). Moderately hard, carbonate-rich water.


I LOVE Vienna lager! A double decoction will give all the rich malt flavor needed, and it won't be too sweet. I'd highly recommend making a Vienna lager with 100% Vienna (carafoam also, if you must, but it's not needed) and noble hops. There is nothing like it!

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