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Old 02-11-2007, 12:26 PM   #1
delboy
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Default vienna lager

Hi
I found a recipe on another forum for a brooklyn lager clone, which i liked the look of, i've made a few adjustments to it so as to suit what ingredients i have. What do you think, am i even close?
I was wondering should i include a protein rest for 30 mins or am i good to go
with the single temp infusion.
Also i set up a one litre, 2 day starter culture on a magnetic stirring plate (first time using one of these) and it doesn't seem to be doing a whole lot ie no sign or smells of fermentation etc. Is this usual when continously stirring the starter ie are the yeast just multiplying and not fermenting or should i be seeing something?
How long should i give the starter to show activity once pitched before i start to panic (contingency is a safale us-05 dried yeast with femenation raised to 18C/64F for a more fruity golden ale).
Any input welcomed.

Batch Size: 5.00 gal
Boil Size: 6.82 gal
Estimated OG: 1.053 SG
Estimated IBU: 30.4 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 65.0 %
Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU
5.00 lb Pilsner (2 Row) Ger (2.0 SRM) Grain
5.00 lb Vienna Malt (3.5 SRM) Grain
1.00 lb Munich Malt Grain
0.25 lb Crystal Malt
1.00 oz Hallertauer Mittelfrueh [4.00%] (60 min) Hops 15.2 IBU
1.50 oz Hallertauer Mittelfrueh [4.00%] (20 min) Hops 13.8 IBU
1.00 oz Hallertauer Mittelfrueh [4.00%] (2 min) Hops 1.3 IBU
0.50 oz Cascade [5.50%] (Dry Hop 28 days) Hops -
1 Pkgs California Common Lager (White labs 810) Yeast-Lager


Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Medium Body, Batch Sparge
Total Grain Weight: 11.25 lb
----------------------------
Name Description Step Temp Step Time
Mash In Add 14.06 qt of water at 166.0 F 154.0 F 90 min

Ferment at 60 *F, D-rest, slowly lower the temp to 35, transfer to secondary with dry hops, lager 4-6 weeks, bottle or keg.

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Old 02-14-2007, 04:47 AM   #2
Bugeaterbrewing
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Looks like a really tasty grain bill there. Very similar to an alt recipe I will be brewing in a couple of days.

On the starter, you won't see much activity on a stir plate, the constant agitation will keep the krausen knocked down. If you stop the stir plate for a hour or two, you can see whether the size of the yeast layer has increased. That said, you won't see much growth in only a 1 liter starter. You really need at least 2 liters of starter for an ale and a minimum of 3 or 4 liters for a lager. With the low fermentation temperatures you should be using with that yeast, you would be looking at a 3 or 4 day lag time before any visible fermentation from just a 1 liter starter. You should really take a look at the pitching calculator on www.mrmalty.com to determine just how much yeast you will need. Before getting a huge erlenmeyer flask, I used to use a one gallon glass wine jug on top of my stir plate for doing big starters. For the 810 yeast, you should aim for about 55° rather than 60° for a fermentation temperature.

On the protein rest, it isn't at all necessary to do one at all with most modern malts. You pretty much have to special order the undermodified malts that require such a rest. If you were doing a recipe with something like 40% wheat malt, then you might need a protein rest. In the 100+ all grain batches I have done, I have not found a need for one yet.

As far as when to panic goes, if you plan to only pitch a 1 liter starter in this, it's time to panic now. As mentioned above, it won't start in a reasonable amount of time. Assuming your sanitation is good and you don't get an infection during the lage time, you will still get a bunch of off flavors.

When greatly underpitching, which is what you would be doing, the yeast will spend the first several days reproducing rather than converting sugars to alcohol. A high rate of reproduction will produce great amounts of esters that will adversely affect the flavor of the finished beer. This is the reason for needing big starters. Such underpitching greatly stresses the yeast, as such the yeast may quit working before all the fermentable sugars are consumed, leaving you with an unacceptably high final gravity.

If you are unable to get a bigger starter built, I highly recommend planning to pitch a good dry yeast right at the start instead. Nottingham fermented at a low temperature (55°-60°) will give you a nice "pseudo lager" character. US-56 for an APA, or S-04 for a slightly fruitier english bitter (if you do an english dry hop).

I hope I haven't discouraged you with the news about the yeast. If you have a large jar or jug, put a couple liters of starter wort in that and pitch the yeast you already have going in there. It probably won't work on your stir plate, so put it some place that you will pass by frequently so you can give it a shake everytime you are in reach of it. That should give you sufficient yeast count.

Wayne
Bugeater Brewing Company

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Old 02-14-2007, 10:20 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bugeaterbrewing
Looks like a really tasty grain bill there. Very similar to an alt recipe I will be brewing in a couple of days.

On the starter, you won't see much activity on a stir plate, the constant agitation will keep the krausen knocked down. If you stop the stir plate for a hour or two, you can see whether the size of the yeast layer has increased. That said, you won't see much growth in only a 1 liter starter. You really need at least 2 liters of starter for an ale and a minimum of 3 or 4 liters for a lager. With the low fermentation temperatures you should be using with that yeast, you would be looking at a 3 or 4 day lag time before any visible fermentation from just a 1 liter starter. You should really take a look at the pitching calculator on www.mrmalty.com to determine just how much yeast you will need. Before getting a huge erlenmeyer flask, I used to use a one gallon glass wine jug on top of my stir plate for doing big starters. For the 810 yeast, you should aim for about 55° rather than 60° for a fermentation temperature.

On the protein rest, it isn't at all necessary to do one at all with most modern malts. You pretty much have to special order the undermodified malts that require such a rest. If you were doing a recipe with something like 40% wheat malt, then you might need a protein rest. In the 100+ all grain batches I have done, I have not found a need for one yet.

As far as when to panic goes, if you plan to only pitch a 1 liter starter in this, it's time to panic now. As mentioned above, it won't start in a reasonable amount of time. Assuming your sanitation is good and you don't get an infection during the lage time, you will still get a bunch of off flavors.

When greatly underpitching, which is what you would be doing, the yeast will spend the first several days reproducing rather than converting sugars to alcohol. A high rate of reproduction will produce great amounts of esters that will adversely affect the flavor of the finished beer. This is the reason for needing big starters. Such underpitching greatly stresses the yeast, as such the yeast may quit working before all the fermentable sugars are consumed, leaving you with an unacceptably high final gravity.

If you are unable to get a bigger starter built, I highly recommend planning to pitch a good dry yeast right at the start instead. Nottingham fermented at a low temperature (55°-60°) will give you a nice "pseudo lager" character. US-56 for an APA, or S-04 for a slightly fruitier english bitter (if you do an english dry hop).

I hope I haven't discouraged you with the news about the yeast. If you have a large jar or jug, put a couple liters of starter wort in that and pitch the yeast you already have going in there. It probably won't work on your stir plate, so put it some place that you will pass by frequently so you can give it a shake everytime you are in reach of it. That should give you sufficient yeast count.

Wayne
Bugeater Brewing Company

Thanks for the response bugeater unfortunately the ship has already sailed so its a work/experiment in progress.
You're absolutely correct about having no visible signs of fermenation ie krausen etc, but i guess thats a good thing, means that the yeast are fully aerated and are multiplying rather than fermenting.
After i switched the stirrer of and left the flask for an hour i was left with a reasonable yeast cake about 1/2 inch thick, i decanted off and thats what i pitched.
I only ended up with about 4.5 gallons of wort (lost about a gallon to the hops and didn't have the wit to devise a way of getting more out, but it was in the wee hours by this stage).
Well its fermenting at 59F which is not ideal but its all i've got at the moment. Maybe i was a bit lucky with my starter but it seems to be fermenting quite well. Their is a fine big head on it and this appeared after less than 20hours so fingers crossed they manage to get me close to the expected FG.
What sort of off flavours should i expect at that temperature if its more ale like/fruity than thats fine(in fact thats kind of what i'm looking for) but the last thing i want is some horrendous eggy sulphorous brew.
I'll try a larger starter next time (getting my hands on large erlenymeyer flasks ain't a problem, one of the advantages of working in a lab) or maybe just throw another batch onto the yeast cake and see how that goes.
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