Toasty Cascade Ale?

Every other brew I make is a nice, lighter APA recipe with about 5-10% Munich, a little Victory and Carapils, the rest 2-row and Pilsner, and a bunch of late C-hops. Right in my wheel house and always tasty. I've been happily in a rut for a couple of years.

To push beyond my comfort zone, I'm trying to make a darker, toasty malty pale ale, while also cleaning out some specialty malts I've had laying around. I also have a lot of Cascade pellets left over. Here's the recipe:

10 lbs Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 71.07 %
1 lbs 8.0 oz Munich Malt (9.0 SRM) Grain 10.66 %
1 lbs Victory Malt (25.0 SRM) Grain 7.11 %
8.0 oz Cara-Pils/Dextrine (2.0 SRM) Grain 3.55 %
8.0 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt - 20L (20.0 SRM) Grain 3.55 %
8.0 oz White Wheat Malt (2.4 SRM) Grain 3.55 %
1.1 oz Roasted Barley (300.0 SRM) Grain 0.50 %
1.00 oz Cascade [5.00 %] (First Wort Hop) Hops 20.0 IBU
1.00 oz Cascade [5.00 %] (60 min) Hops 18.2 IBU
2.50 oz Cascade [5.00 %] (1 min) Hops 6.1 IBU

Washed Wyeast 1056 with big starter

Est Original Gravity: 1.063 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.016 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 6.15 %
Bitterness: 44.2 IBU
Est Color: 9.7 SRM

My 2 concerns:

1) Is this too much of the toasted malt spectrum? I've used this much Munich and this much Victory before, but never at the same time.
2) I love Cascades, but I'm not a big fan of American hops in high % crystal beers - I just think it's a clashing taste - and I'm concerned that this beer will have a similar effect. Hoping the Cascade doesn't clash with this high a % of toasted malts.

Anyone make a darker, toasty pale ale along these lines? Planning to mash pretty low (150ish) to make sure it's dried out. Just looking for others' experiences with this.

Thanks.

My standard, tried-and-true APA recipe is actually very similar... I use a bit more Munich and a bit less Victory. I use Warrior for bittering and Centennial for Aroma. My IBU's are a bit lower at 36.7, but then my OG is lower at 1.054 so maybe your higher OG will balance out your higher IBU's?

It doesn't seem like you're actually using too much Crystal which was your 2nd concern so I think you're fine. I use the same amount but I use 60L. If anything I'd cut the roasted barley and scale back on the Victory if you're concerned about too much toasty flavor... but even as is I think this recipe could be good.

Here's my recipe in case you're interested. It's a nicely balanced easy drinker in my opinion.

8 lbs 8.0 oz Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 1 73.9 %
2 lbs Munich Malt (9.0 SRM) Grain 2 17.4 %
8.0 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L (60.0 SRM) Grain 3 4.3 %
8.0 oz Victory Malt (25.0 SRM) Grain 4 4.3 %
0.50 oz Warrior [15.00 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 5 22.9 IBUs
0.50 oz Centennial [10.00 %] - Boil 10.0 min Hop 6 5.5 IBUs
0.50 oz Warrior [15.00 %] - Boil 10.0 min Hop 7 8.3 IBUs
0.50 oz Centennial [10.00 %] - Aroma Steep 0.0 m Hop 8 0.0 IBUs
1.0 pkg California Ale V (White Labs #WLP051) [3 Yeast 9 -

Estimated OG: 1.054 SG
Estimated FG: 1.013 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 5.4 %
Estimated Color: 8.2 SRM
Estimated IBU: 36.7 IBUs

Mash at 152F with a fly-sparge

apalke said:

My standard, tried-and-true APA recipe is actually very similar... I use a bit more Munich and a bit less Victory. I use Warrior for bittering and Centennial for Aroma. My IBU's are a bit lower at 36.7, but then my OG is lower at 1.054 so maybe your higher OG will balance out your higher IBU's?

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Thanks for the feedback. I think we're on the same page on the OG:BU thing. My typical APA is closer to 1.055 and I usually shoot for high 30s on IBUs. I added some more for the extra OG here.

apalke said:

It doesn't seem like you're actually using too much Crystal which was your 2nd concern so I think you're fine.

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Yeah, I wasn't very clear on that. I'm not worried that this recipe is too much Crystal. I'm only hoping that this much toasted Malt (7-8% Victory along with 10+% Munich) won't clash with the American Hops. I've found I don't like the Citrusy hops with high Crystal beers, and hoping this won't be a similar effect.

Thanks for some reaffirmation on the malt balance. Your 1/2 lb Victory with 2 lbs Munich is more of both than I usually use, hence my question. Also, I've never used Warrior in mine - I'll have to give that one a shot on my next APA. I always tweak something.

I'll probably forge ahead with this one and report back. Whatever the outcome, It'll be beer.

I see you concern more clearly now. You are also using more aroma hops than I am with 2oz Cascade right at the end... but if you are making a relatively small incremental increase in the malty-toastiness I think it'll be fine.

Let me know how it turns out. It sounds like a good recipe to me.

And I used the Warrior mainly as a clean bittering hop... I don't know why I added at 10 minutes, that addition could probably be recalculated to add a bit more at 60 minutes to get the IBU's I want. My understanding is that Warrior is a good high-alpha acid hop where you don't have to add too much to hit your IBU target... I don't think it's a great aroma or flavor hop.

definitely report back Omahawk, it sounds like a pretty tasty brew either way. I've been toying around with an idea similar to yours for a toastier APA but I have a back log of beers I want to brew before I get you it.

Interesting brew morning. Worst stuck mash I've ever had (don't think it was recipe related, my SS braid pinched) and ended up transitioning to a BIAB out of necessity. Without the sparge, my efficiency went down and it ended up at SG 1.056. Considered adding some DME, but decided it would be a toasty light IPA instead of a toasty heavy APA. It did smell great.

I got this thing fermented, crash cooled, kegged and carbed in 2 weeks and we were drinking it last night while we brewed an Oktoberfest. It was still a little green, but really quite good. The color (10 SRM) and toasty notes were perfect on an unusually mild, almost cool August evening. I'm definitely moving to a similar malt profile for my fall/winter APA - I think I will still like my typical lighter malt profile for my summer APA.

Only revision for next time: The all-cascade hopping was purposeful on this one, as it was a clean-out-the-freezer batch. That being said, my only tweak to my next batch is I'll bring in a second hop (likely Amarillo or Columbus, or maybe Warrior as apalke suggested) to add a little more hop complexity.

Omahawk said:

Worst stuck mash I've ever had (don't think it was recipe related, my SS braid pinched) and ended up transitioning to a BIAB out of necessity.

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Also, neighbor and I made a simple, circular copper manifold to replace the stainless braid on the mash tun for last night's brew. Unlike this Toasty Cascade Ale, the brew session last night was the smoothest lauter ever, and I had about 5 points higher efficiency than usual with my single infusion and sparge. (83%)

I'm glad it turned out well. I'm brewing a pale ale tomorrow. However, at the brew store they were out of munich so I subbed vienna... the lack of munich must have thrown me off because then I bought 12oz of special roast instead of 8oz victory... I think I thought I was brewing my porter. So that's 8lb 2row, 2lb Vienna, 12oz special roast, .75 crystal 40L. I'm gonna go with it. It may end up somewhere between pale and amber ale but it should be good (I hope). Maybe the vienna substitution will balance the special roast substitution?

I'm also going to use my homegrown cascade hops for aroma for the first time... still using warrior to bitter. I'm turning a lot of knobs all at once so wish me luck.

apalke said:

I'm glad it turned out well. I'm brewing a pale ale tomorrow. However, at the brew store they were out of munich so I subbed vienna... the lack of munich must have thrown me off because then I bought 12oz of special roast instead of 8oz victory... I think I thought I was brewing my porter. So that's 8lb 2row, 2lb Vienna, 12oz special roast, .75 crystal 40L. I'm gonna go with it. It may end up somewhere between pale and amber ale but it should be good (I hope). Maybe the vienna substitution will balance the special roast substitution?

I'm also going to use my homegrown cascade hops for aroma for the first time... still using warrior to bitter. I'm turning a lot of knobs all at once so wish me luck.

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I'd leave the special roast out, or maybe add only one or 2 ounces. Let the Vienna shine.

apalke said:

I'm glad it turned out well. I'm brewing a pale ale tomorrow. However, at the brew store they were out of munich so I subbed vienna... the lack of munich must have thrown me off because then I bought 12oz of special roast instead of 8oz victory... I think I thought I was brewing my porter. So that's 8lb 2row, 2lb Vienna, 12oz special roast, .75 crystal 40L. I'm gonna go with it. It may end up somewhere between pale and amber ale but it should be good (I hope). Maybe the vienna substitution will balance the special roast substitution?

I'm also going to use my homegrown cascade hops for aroma for the first time... still using warrior to bitter. I'm turning a lot of knobs all at once so wish me luck.

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2 lbs Vienna will be great, but that much Special B is a little intense for my APA tastes. Then again, I thought 1 lb of Victory was before I tried it. So what do I know? Maybe cut it back to 4-8 oz to start with?

Homegrown cascades for aroma addition will be awesome! Jealous.

Had another pint with dinner tonight. It was pretty freakin' great.

Happy brew day.

Oh no, not 12oz of Special B, but 12oz of Special Roast. My understanding is that Special Roast is a bit like turbocharged Victory. I agree that 12oz will be alot, but the grain is all mixed together and I think I'll just go from here. I've seen other people using this much Special Roast.

It's my understanding also that Vienna is a milder version of Munich, so using Vienna instead of Munich might offset the extra biscuity/toasty/malty flavors from the Special Roast. I'll let you guys know how it turns out.

apalke said:

Oh no, not 12oz of Special B, but 12oz of Special Roast.

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Yeah, typo. I knew which one you meant (the 50 L one, not the 100+ L one). Like I said, I already went past my comfort zone with this much toasted malt, and liked it, so what do I know? Usually, I think about using more intense malts like that in 5% or less increments.

Report back - curious what you get out of this. Good luck.

Ive gone up to 25% munich, i think it was around 3.2pds.
Delicious bready tones, citrusy hops.
Ended up buying a sack of munich just so ill always have it on hand!
One of my favorite malts!

Johnnyhitch1 said:

Ive gone up to 25% munich, i think it was around 3.2pds.
Delicious bready tones, citrusy hops.
Ended up buying a sack of munich just so ill always have it on hand!
One of my favorite malts!

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There's something to be said for keeping it simple. I can see enjoying a recipe along these lines myself. Any favorite hop blend with a heavy-Munich pale ale like this?

Omahawk said:

Yeah, typo. I knew which one you meant (the 50 L one, not the 100+ L one). Like I said, I already went past my comfort zone with this much roast, and liked it, so what do I know? Usually, I think about using more intense malts like that in 5% or less increments.

Report back - curious what you get out of this. Good luck.

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Yeah, like I said it wasn't what I meant to do... I was trying to emulate your move by upping the victory, Anyway, I brewed it up today and took a sample that I separated from the leftover trub. It was definitely darker than a pale ale should be, so my extra special roast probably pushed this over into amber ale territory. It should still be good though. My homegrown cascades (added at flameout) shone through nicely and should work well with the malty wort. Anyway, this beer is a little off-topic now because of the grain bill, but I'll let you know how it turns out if you're still interested.

apalke said:

Yeah, like I said it wasn't what I meant to do... I was trying to emulate your move by upping the victory, Anyway, I brewed it up today and took a sample that I separated from the leftover trub. It was definitely darker than a pale ale should be, so my extra special roast probably pushed this over into amber ale territory. It should still be good though. My homegrown cascades (added at flameout) shone through nicely and should work well with the malty wort. Anyway, this beer is a little off-topic now because of the grain bill, but I'll let you know how it turns out if you're still interested.

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I think it's on topic as I would enjoy an American Amber without the crystal-citrus hop mix. What's your calculated SRM and IBUs?

Report back with the taste results.

Beersmith says it should be 35 IBUs (all from 0.75 oz Warrior at 60min) and 10.5 SRM. So the color should be spot on for a pale ale according to Beersmith, but honestly the bit I separated from the trub yesterday seemed darker... though maybe that's just because it had some particulate matter mixed in?

On a side note, I'm interested in your copper manifold build. I'm guessing it's made out of copper pipes? Care to show a picture?

Omahawk: this is great news! The only thing I find sad for me is the fact that my brother and I developed a similar, yet simpler, recipe around biscuit malt. Our latest version used victory malt instead. So much for being original! *facepalm* We only use 4 malts. So much for feeling original! haha.

DSorenson said:

Omahawk: this is great news! The only thing I find sad for me is the fact that my brother and I developed a similar, yet simpler, recipe around biscuit malt. Our latest version used victory malt instead. So much for being original! *facepalm* We only use 4 malts. So much for feeling original! haha.

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Ha. I'm guessing neither would have been "original". It's all been done before. Either way, this turned out really nice.

What's your recipe?

apalke said:

On a side note, I'm interested in your copper manifold build. I'm guessing it's made out of copper pipes? Care to show a picture?

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Too lazy to go take a picture of mine and download / upload it. It pretty much looks like this manifold I found on a Google search. Lots of cuts on the bottom with a hacksaw. Additionally, I put 4-6 small drill holes on the top to avoid air bubbles (someone in a thread mentioned doing this, and I knew it wouldn't hurt, so I went ahead and did it).

It's in a converted, round 10 gallon Igloo with bulkhead and valve.

I finally am getting around to reporting back about my accidental experiment with a whole pound of Special Roast (see a few posts back somewhere for the full recipe).

The beer ended up actually not too bad. It's very drinkable. The beer is very malty, but it does have a certain taste to it that is a bit off-putting if you linger on it too long... I'd probably attribute this to the whole pound of Special Roast. I think my homegrown cascade hops maybe were not fully ready when I picked them, so I dry hopped with some amarillo. It may be better with more hop character, especially earlier flavoring hops, to balance the maltiness from the Special Roast.

However, in the end, I'd say a full pound of Special Roast is probably too much even if you were attempting a malty amber or porter or something of the sort... even if that sounds like common sense to the rest of you out there.

Omahawk's recipe sounds good though. I'll make my next pale ale with a pound of victory just as he did it.