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Old 11-21-2012, 02:08 PM   #1
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Default "Shanghai Cigarettes" Imperial Smoked Stout

Tobacco is apparently very toxic in brewing. The rest of the recipe still stands.


Hey all,

Here's a somewhat weird recipe I'm considering brewing with a friend.

9.9lbs Dark LME
4lbs Weyermann Smoked Malt
2lb Chocolate
2lb Crystal 80

2oz Centennial @ 60
1oz Centennial @ 30
2oz Willamettte @ 15
1oz Willamette @ 5

Additions:
-2oz medium toast french oak chips in second

Stats:
71 IBUs
10.8% alcohol
1.105 SG
1.023 FG

Meant to be somewhat imposing / terrifying.
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Old 11-21-2012, 02:14 PM   #2
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Do NOT add tobacco to your beer. It is extremely toxic when dissolved in liquid!

There's a bunch of threads on this topic if you search for it, usually some fool thinks it would be cool to do ...you will find that it is highly toxic. In fact people used to be poisoned by using an extraction from tobbaco.

Quote:
Don't do it..When you hear of a beer or wine that has essence of tobbacco, that is a descriptor, not actual tobacco flavor.

Quote:
The leaf extract was a popular pest control method up to the beginning of the 20th century. In 1851, the Belgian chemist Jean Stas was the first to prove the use of tobacco extract as a murder poison in the civilised world. The Belgian count Hippolyte Visart de Bocarmé had poisoned his brother-in-law with tobacco leaf extract in order to acquire some urgently needed money. This was the first exact proof of alkaloid
Those flavors come from roasted grains, occaisonally adjuncts like raisins like the above person said. Don't even think about REAL tobacco.

I wouldn't think about smoking malt with it either...let's see, formaldehyde and about 50 other deadly compounds come out in the smoke and would then cling to the grains...

The stuff that comes out in the smoke which will attach itself to the grain will be more often than not, be just as nasty as the nicotine...How do you think the hickory taste gets from the smoke to the meat when you smoke a brisket for example? It's chemical molecules that cling to and penetrate the meat...the same thing will happen to the grain....the compounds given off in the burning tobacco will attach to the grain...then they will leach into the wort...

Heres what the Center for Disease control says about nicotine poisoning...

Quote:
Clinical description

After oral ingestion of nicotine, signs and symptoms of nicotine poisoning mimic those for nerve agent or organophosphate poisoning and typically include excess oral secretions, bronchorrhea, diaphoresis, vomiting (common, especially among children), diarrhea, abdominal cramping, confusion, and convulsions. Although tachycardia and hypertension are common, bradycardia and hypotension might also occur as a result of a severe poisoning (1, 2).
This is NOT something you wanna mess with folks...all specultion aside...This is potentially LETHAL!!!!!

Quote:
A cigar, depending on its size and type, can contain anywhere from 10 to 444 mg of nicotine. Cigar smoke produces 30 times more carbon monoxide than cigarette smoke. During this time, high concentrations of tobacco-specific nitrosamines (TSNAs) are produced. TSNAs are some of the most carcinogenic compounds known to man. Secondly, cigar wrappers are not as porous as cigarette wrappers, making the combustion of a cigar less complete. These two factors result in higher concentrations some of the toxic chemicals in cigars than in cigarettes.
Again, this is NOT how those flavors appear in wines and beers where you appear to taste it....What you taste REMINDS YOU of the flavors...but they are NOT THE ACTUAL MATERIALS!!! It's a METAPHOR....

If you guys aren't grasping this idea...listen to this basic brewing podcast....

Quote:
May 1, 2008 - Beer Eye for the Wine Guy
Gary Vaynerchuk of Wine Library TV brings the thunder to BBR and gives us his perspectives on the art of tasting as he samples homebrew.

Click to Listen
He talks about how we taste, and how it triggers memories of things...

his is an interesting discussion I found on some writing forum where some author was looking for information on liquid nicotine poisoning as a murder weapon in a film....the person answering provided plenty of interesting links and info.

Quote:
First off, let's look at the dosage of liquid nicotine that needs to
be ingested orally to cause a fatal reaction:

liquid nicotine
URL: http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=1121636
Quote: "According to the National Capital Poison Center, the lethal
dosage of nicotine in the human body is 40-60mg, although mild signs
of poisoning can show up after consuming as little as 5mg."

Your murderer character would likely want to use the upper end of that
range to ensure death. 60 mg is the amount in many over-the-counter
capsules. Not a huge amount, but not a trace amount either. There is
no way that that much poison would be able to be concentrated into a
single bite of an apple. Any liquid would rapidly diffuse throughout
much of the body of a piece of fruit.

What is the taste and smell of liquid nicotine?

Nicotine and its Derivatives from Tobacco Waste
URL: http://www.tifac.org.in/offer/tlbo/rep/TMS158.htm
Quote: "Nicotine has a bitter taste and a sharp odour."


Nicotine
URL: http://www.inchem.org/documents/pims...l/nicotine.htm
Quote: "Nicotine is a liquid alkaloid. It is water soluble and has a
pKa of 8.5. It is a bitter-tasting liquid"

So, by all accounts, the stuff is nasty tasting and nasty smelling.
Probably very noticable in apples, which are quite mild.

So, even if the victim character doesn't notice the bad taste and
smell, what happens after the first poison-laced bite?

NICOTINE
URL: http://www.cepis.ops-oms.org/bvsapud...e/nicotine.htm
Quote: "Nicotine initially causes a burning sensation in mouth,
throat, esophagus and stomach. Increased salivation follows. Nausea,
vomiting, abdominal pain, and diarrhea are common. Vomiting may occur
very early after tobacco ingestion, minimizing absorption and other
toxic manifestations."

Not likely to cause the victim character to take a second bite.

While some researchers have experimented with prescribing liquid
nicotine as a smoking cure, the dose is very low and the patient knows
that they are taking the cure and will put up with the taste, smell,
and other nasty sensations:

Liquid Nicotine
URL: http://www.thecarolinachannel.com/he...21/detail.html
Quote: "Researchers at Duke University Medical Center have patented a
nicotine solution and are testing to see if it can help people quit
smoking. The nicotine solution can be added to coffee, tea, soda,
beer, lemonade or other acidic beverages and consumed several times a
day in place of smoking. In a small pilot study, the solution proved
effective. Twenty-five smokers chose a date to quit and were given the
solution to mix into their beverages with instructions to use it as
needed for smoking urges during a 12-week period. Participants drank
between 2.5 milligrams to 10 milligrams of the solution per beverage.
Abstinence rates reported by participants were 28 percent at 4 weeks,
24 percent at 3 months, and 20 percent at 6 months. Side effects of
the oral solution were minimal. Only one participant dropped out of
the study, complaining of a burning sensation at the site of dental
work."

The only mention I found of trying to camouflage the taste and smell
of nicotine for oral consumption is the "Nicotini", a nicotine laced
cocktail. They go to great lengths to cover up the offensive
taste/smell.


So, if you want to use liquid nicotine in your script plot, I suggest
you find another, more plausible way of getting it inside your
fictitious victim.

Further scientific information on nicotine and its effects can be found at:

NICOTINE
URL: http://www.cepis.ops-oms.org/bvsapud...e/nicotine.htm

Nicotine
URL: http://www.inchem.org/documents/pims...l/nicotine.htm

There is a liquid nicotine solution but I would think they extract it in a way that keeps it below a poisonous limit, I wouldn't trust us to do it though.

I love a good cigar... smoke em if you got em...but don't CONCENTRATE the chemicals in you beer!

There's some good suggestions in this thread about using woods and lots of dark grains are reminiscent of tobacco, go with those.
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Old 11-21-2012, 02:16 PM   #3
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This is a NEW reference on the dangers of doing this...it's geared towards bartenders, and really folks like us, who want to play with tobacco in alcohol. Read it.

I'll even make it easy for you, since it's SO IMPORTANT that you understand this.

Quote:
We've recently become aware of a surge in the number of bartenders creating homemade tobacco spirit infusions and bitters - most of which simply involve leaving a cigar in a bottle of spirit. Often, these are presented in competitions, but we've also seen five-star hotel bars with such products on the back-bar and are generally conscious of it becoming more widespread. It worried us a bit, thinking about the potential risks of toxicity in such a concentrated form, and then we discovered that Darcy S. O'Neil, a molecular pathologist and occasional bartender, already shared our concerns.

For some reason bartenders are drawn to the idea of infusing spirits with tobacco. After I made a statement that "tobacco infusions are a bad idea", I've had a number of people ask me why. The simple answer is toxicity, but that answer doesn't provide the details intelligent bartenders are looking for, so I've expanded on the question. If you are thinking about doing a tobacco infusion, this is a must-read article. If you go to bars where a tobacco-infused cocktail might show up on the menu, this is a must-read article.

Having worked in labs for a good part of my life, I've been subjected to enough safety training and accident reviews to have a healthy respect for the dangers that lurk below seemingly innocuous things.

A couple of days a week I work in a histology lab where I spend my time preparing tissue samples for researchers. One of the pieces of equipment we use is a microtome, which cuts sections of tissue as fine as 3 microns. For perspective, a human hair is roughly 100 microns. The trick to cutting things so fine is to use a really sharp blade. Now, no matter how many times we tell people to use extreme caution when cutting, there are always a few nasty cuts. It takes almost no pressure for the blade to slice through flesh resulting in a blood, stitches and a lot of paper work.

To date I have not cut myself, but there have been a few close calls. Please don't tell me to knock on wood. The reason I've avoided carving up my digits is because I'm keenly aware of the dangers. I'm almost robotic in my use of the safety devices and my reactions when something goes wrong.

So what does this have to do with infusing spirits with tobacco? Well, it just demonstrates that no matter what position you are in, you must be aware of the dangers and take precautions. In the case of tobacco infusions, the nicotine in tobacco is extremely toxic. To compare, here are some numbers for other well know toxins:

Lethal Dose
Arsenic 200mg
Strychnine 75mg
Hydrogen Cyanide 60mg
Nicotine 60mg

You are reading that correctly: nicotine is just as toxic as hydrogen cyanide (HCN). Considering HCN was used for chemical warfare purposes and suicide pills, the fact that nicotine is equally as toxic should give a person pause before incorporating it into a drink. Also, even if you don't hit the toxic levels, there are still serious side-effects with lower doses.

Let's do some maths to understand where a tobacco-infused spirit can go wrong.

A single cigarette contains 10 to 20mg of nicotine, but a smoker only gets a fraction of that amount, typically 2 to 3mg of nicotine with the other portion being burned away or not inhaled, but still a buzz worthy dose. In a liquid extraction or infusion process the yield of nicotine will be much higher.

Let's say you take 5 grams of tobacco, with 15mg of nicotine per gram, and infuse that into 250ml of vodka. That means that each 30ml (one ounce) of infused vodka will have roughly 9mg of nicotine. Even though it's not at the toxic level, if someone were to do a shot, they'd get a seriously objectionable rush. A few rounds of cocktails made with this infusion would lead to bad results.

The second problem is that non-smokers have no tolerance for nicotine. I don't smoke, but I know many people that do and they always talk about the rush they had when they started smoking, many of them said they felt ill after their first cigarette. Let's say that's only 2mg of nicotine, if a non-smoker sucked back a cocktail with 3 or 4mg of nicotine it would probably be a very unpleasant experience.

Then of course there is the compounded hangover of nicotine and alcohol withdrawal. Probably not fun.

I trust bartenders to make Manhattans and Margaritas, and many times they can't even get those simple recipes right. Knowing that, would you trust them enough to dose your cocktail with hydrogen cyanide? How about the equally toxic nicotine? Unlike other things, I find that nicotine is a bit too toxic to work with safely and I'm apprehensive at the thought of drinking tobacco-infused cocktails. Even if they aren't lethal, there are still the unpleasant side-effects I can live without.

As for the concept of cold-smoking a spirit (i.e. infusing the smoke into the spirit) this is a safer approach, since the nicotine levels will be lower. I have tried a sample of this before and the end result can be quite harsh. The flavour was reminiscent of a cigarette butt in beer bottle. Yes, back before smoking was banned in bars, I was unfortunate enough to take a swig of a bottle of beer that someone used as an ashtray. You can't forget that flavour. It makes me wonder why people would even want to drink a Nicotini.

If you operate a bar, or work in at one, I'd say you definitely need to consider liability issues if you are serving tobacco infused cocktails. There have been a number of questions about making a distillate with tobacco and whether the nicotine would distill over. As far as I can tell if you made an infusion of tobacco and distilled it, the nictine would not be in the final product. The boiling point of nicotine is 247C so it's unlikely to pass over during distillation.

This article is reproduced with kind permission of Darcy S. O'Neil who first published it earlier this year on his www.artofdrink.com blog
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Old 11-21-2012, 02:19 PM   #4
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Huh! Thanks so much for that!

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Old 11-21-2012, 02:22 PM   #5
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Try this experiment. Take a very small amount of tobacco out of a cigarette, and put it in your mouth as you would chewing tobacco. Smart money says you will VOMIT inside of an hour like this.

Now multiply this obvious toxicity by "a good amount" and you are talking about crippling or lethal dosages.

I applaud your drive to do something different but use your head! Do you want to be the very first homebrewer to kill their buddies with their brew?

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Old 11-21-2012, 02:24 PM   #6
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Multiple people beat me to it

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Old 11-21-2012, 02:25 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cincy17 View Post
Is that a proven recipe? I would be afraid of putting tobacco in a beer. Ever tried chew/dip and had too much spit run down your throat? Plus, the amount of nicotine coming out of tobacco when it is steeped or boiled will be a LOT higher than smoking or chewing it. Maybe make a cold steeped tea with some nice tobacco and see how that tastes. If it's good, try adding that post-ferment to the beer and just try it in a small sample first to get an idea of the flavor addition.
Hot steep/cold steep it doesn't matter. Read what I posted above. We've dealt with this before on here, that's why I keep the info handy, for when someone gets this idea in their head..

I grew up in a time when just about everyone with a garden had a jar of cigarettes in water. Back in the 70's it was thought to be a good idea for gardeners who had to deal with aphids to take a bunch of cigarettes and steep them in water in a mason jar, and whenever you had aphids to spray some of that on the plant. All the grown ups had these jars of brown liquid usually up on the top shelf of the garage out of reach. I was a kid was told to keep away, but you know how some kids are, you tell them and they then can't stay away. And even if you can't read, you can climb, and that jar is mighty tempting.

A kid in my town died from drinking some.
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Old 11-21-2012, 02:25 PM   #8
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Try this experiment. Take a very small amount of tobacco out of a cigarette, and put it in your mouth as you would chewing tobacco. Smart money says you will VOMIT inside of an hour like this.

Now multiply this obvious toxicity by "a good amount" and you are talking about crippling or lethal dosages.

I applaud your drive to do something different but use your head! Do you want to be the very first homebrewer to kill their buddies with their brew?
I actually have had a drop of liquid nicotine before and it was terrifying. Didn't realize the extraction rate was so high.
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Bottled: Of Note: Imperial Chili Stout, Single Hop Mosaic Wild IPA, Single Hop Galaxy Wild IPA, and Wild Cali Common with Ghost Pepper / Mango / Peach
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Old 11-21-2012, 02:33 PM   #9
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What you COULD do that would be kinda kitschy is somehow package a stogey to the outside of the bottle, with the implication that one is meant to smoke it whilst drinking the beer...

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Old 11-21-2012, 02:42 PM   #10
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What you COULD do that would be kinda kitschy is somehow package a stogey to the outside of the bottle, with the implication that one is meant to smoke it whilst drinking the beer...
That is a cool idea. It would make a great gift, like to groomsmen for a wedding. Take a barleywine, either homebrewed or commercial and put a ribbon with a nice stogie to compliment it.

We have talked about "alternatives" to this before. One simple option is if you're brewing all grain, or even extract with steeping grains would be to take wooden humidor or old cigar box (even better) with a couple of cigars and fill it with some of your grain and let it sit for a few weeks, just absorbing the cedar and tobacco aromas into the grain.

Another option is what Cigar City does. From their site:

"each beer in the Humidor Series is aged on Spanish cedar (cedrela), the same wood used to make cigar boxes. The Spanish cedar imparts notes of white pepper, sandalwood and other spices."

Just like we use oak or other woods, either in a barrel or just chips in secondary, they use old cigar boxes.
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