Saison recipe help

Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum

Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

BostonianBrewer

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 10, 2012
Messages
336
Reaction score
19
Location
Metro west
6.6#lme
1# crystal 10
1/2 Simco
1/2 Amarillo ,dryhop
#1056 American ale with #3112 Brettanomyces bruxellensis

Suggestions for hop times or more hops are welcome, fermention temp and any other grains that might help would be some welcome I formation
 
use light LME, pilsner LME if you can get it. if you have the ability to do a partial mash, you could add some munich and some wheat. if you can't, here's a recipe that uses munich and pilen extract: http://www.brewtoad.com/recipes/jamils-saison

personally i don't like crystal in my saisons, so a pound seems really high to me. jamil's saison recipe calls for 2 oz of caramunich (a crystal malt, albeit a rather unique one). so i'd suggest cutting the C-10 down by half, if not by 75% (if not completely).

one of the reasons that you don't want to use crystal is that a saison should be bone-dry. it's also why saison recipes typically call for sugar - so you might want to add some to your recipe.

if you want to make a saison, you should use a saison yeast. 1056 won't give you the fruit and spice flavors that make the style. for any belgian style you need to use the appropriate yeast. it's not to say that 1056 + brett won't make for a great beer but i'd hesitate to call it a saison.
 
I would also prefer less crystal, especially considering the extract almost certainly used some already. Consider replacing some extract with sugar, too, for better fermentability.
 
sweetcell said:
if you want to make a saison, you should use a saison yeast. 1056 won't give you the fruit and spice flavors that make the style. for any belgian style you need to use the appropriate yeast. it's not to say that 1056 + brett won't make for a great beer but i'd hesitate to call it a saison.

This.

Your recipe is a Brett APA. Got one fermenting myself. But for your 1st saison you might consider Wyeast3711--don't have to play games with it like some other strains.

Cheers!
 
This is not a saison recipe. It's a... sweet pale ale.

I'd suggest using some Pilsner extract and some wheat extract together.

No crystal in there.

Make it to around 20-30 IBU's for style, so if you want american hops, I'd keep the amounts low, and late. 20 min and in, and won't need a bunch of them. Amarillo and Citra would work great in a Saison if you want American hops in there.

Use 3711. It's not fussy, and it's bone dry when it finishes, and likes whatever temp, above 70 that you can toss at it.
 
I already purchased the yeast I'm using (American ale & a brettanomyces late addition) should I have a second one of what you suggest (3711) on hand in case it dies out early, also I have a pound of white wheat on hand should I throw 1/2 of that in the mix with the crystal & How long should I steep them for at what temp
 
No - what they're saying is swap the 3711 in completely for the 1056. The yeast makes this beer and without Saison yeast it will not be a Saison - not even similar.

I would also suggest making the extract a pilsner extra t, if it isn't already as its part or the style

And wheat needs t be converted and cannot be steeped.
 
I have Pilsen extract , how should I convert my wheat ? Could I just do a LONG steep to convert maybe like 60min At 150, if so will they crystal10
Be ok steeping that long ? Also what about adding the Brett to a 3724!?
 
You will have to mini mash if you want to add wheat, if you aren't using wheat extract.

So you will need to include 2 row to convert the wheat, and will need to be able to mash it, not steep it. I don't mini mash, I do all grain so I'm not familiar with what amounts you need, but I would get like 2-3 pounds of 2 row, and then you can add your wheat. You'll need more than a pound I think. It will all need to be crushed, you'll need to be able to hold the temp at 149 or so for 60 minutes, and then drain the runnings, sparge it, and then go from there.

Also, if you use 1056, you will NOT have anything close to a saison.

If you are wanting to add brett, you will need to have other fermentables like oats, barley, wheat, something in there for the brett to eat on after your main strain, 3724/3711 finish the main fermentation. Brett will take a WHILE to come through, so if you brew with brett, don't expect it to just "happen" and give you the brett flavors and notes. Will be a couple months, where just plain ol 3711 will be done in 2-3 weeks.

Your best bet, since this is obviously your first saison, is to buy Pilsen extract, and supplement it with some wheat extract. Hop it to 20-30 IBU's, and be done with it.

Use 3711. The Dupont strain will have a tendency to stall out if not kept really warm, and it takes a bit of time to ferment out all the way.

If you are hell bent on adding Brett, then I'd suggest being open to waiting a very long time to drink this beer, as it will not happen over night. I'd suggest making a starter of the brett, as well.
 
FATC1TY said:
You will have to mini mash if you want to add wheat, if you aren't using wheat extract.

So you will need to include 2 row to convert the wheat, and will need to be able to mash it, not steep it. I don't mini mash, I do all grain so I'm not familiar with what amounts you need, but I would get like 2-3 pounds of 2 row, and then you can add your wheat. You'll need more than a pound I think. It will all need to be crushed, you'll need to be able to hold the temp at 149 or so for 60 minutes, and then drain the runnings, sparge it, and then go from there.

Also, if you use 1056, you will NOT have anything close to a saison.

If you are wanting to add brett, you will need to have other fermentables like oats, barley, wheat, something in there for the brett to eat on after your main strain, 3724/3711 finish the main fermentation. Brett will take a WHILE to come through, so if you brew with brett, don't expect it to just "happen" and give you the brett flavors and notes. Will be a couple months, where just plain ol 3711 will be done in 2-3 weeks.

Your best bet, since this is obviously your first saison, is to buy Pilsen extract, and supplement it with some wheat extract. Hop it to 20-30 IBU's, and be done with it.

Use 3711. The Dupont strain will have a tendency to stall out if not kept really warm, and it takes a bit of time to ferment out all the way.

If you are hell bent on adding Brett, then I'd suggest being open to waiting a very long time to drink this beer, as it will not happen over night. I'd suggest making a starter of the brett, as well.

When you say drain the the running a what do you mean ? Also if I did use the wheat and didn't have two row what would happen to
The beer ? I hear you on everything else
 
+1 to all of this. Certain styles require certain ingredients to get the flavor profiles associated with them. Go ahead and make this beer, but if you truly want to make a saison, just check out some recipes and see what is typically used. You can still make your own based off of them. For instance, I'll be making a saison this weekend. This is the recipe:
5 lbs. pilsener
1.5 lbs. 2- row
1 lb. Munich 20
.75 lb. rye malt
.75 lb. cane sugar

.5 oz nugget at 60
.5 strisslespalt at 15
.5 strisslespalt at 0

Yeast 3711 French saison.
 
I have a # of Belgian pale grains lying around could I add to help the wheat ? And add some Belgian light syrup for the Brett to eat ??
 
I have Pilsen extract , how should I convert my wheat ? Could I just do a LONG steep to convert maybe like 60min At 150, if so will they crystal10
Be ok steeping that long ? Also what about adding the Brett to a 3724!?
yes, holding the wheat at 150 for 60 mins will convert it quite nicely. no problem adding the C-10 for that long, that's how all-grain brewers do it.

So you will need to include 2 row to convert the wheat, and will need to be able to mash it, not steep it.

If you are hell bent on adding Brett, then I'd suggest being open to waiting a very long time to drink this beer, as it will not happen over night. I'd suggest making a starter of the brett, as well.

wheat will convert itself, it has plenty of diastatic power. no need for 2-row.

starter for the brett isn't needed if adding in addition to a sacc (1056, 3711, etc). you don't want to pitch too much brett, 1 vial is plenty. brett will produce more flavor if stressed.
 
Sweetcell what would be an ideal fermention temp to start at and what should I push it to when I add the Brett .... note I started brewing this and did add the two row just a half pound tho and just a half of wheat to the 1 pound of crystal
 
When you say drain the the running a what do you mean ? Also if I did use the wheat and didn't have two row what would happen to
The beer ? I hear you on everything else

Exactly as it means. Drain mash off, and collect the runnings, or the water that is now laden with sugars.

You would have to strain the grain.

If you used the wheat without two row, you would be adding nothing but starches and proteins to the beer, which would simply make your beer gummy and cloudy with no sign of clearing up. You wouldn't get any benefit of even wasting the time with the wheat.
 
If you used the wheat without two row, you would be adding nothing but starches and proteins to the beer, which would simply make your beer gummy and cloudy with no sign of clearing up. You wouldn't get any benefit of even wasting the time with the wheat.

this is incorrect. wheat has the enzymes required for conversion, it will convert itself. you could make a 100% wheat beer if you wanted to (use a lot of rice hulls!!!).

2-row is not required to mash wheat.
 
yes, holding the wheat at 150 for 60 mins will convert it quite nicely. no problem adding the C-10 for that long, that's how all-grain brewers do it.



wheat will convert itself, it has plenty of diastatic power. no need for 2-row.

starter for the brett isn't needed if adding in addition to a sacc (1056, 3711, etc). you don't want to pitch too much brett, 1 vial is plenty. brett will produce more flavor if stressed.

Would depend on what kind of wheat he's using. If it's un malted like flaked then he aint doin a damn thing by adding it.

But it's just beer, and he can add what he likes and has on hand and learn a bit..
 
Oh, I agree, I know that malted wheat, will work. If it's not malted, then it's just gonna be a gummy mess that leaves nothing behind in the beer that he wants. Might leave something the Brett wants, but not much else.

My point of helping what that his original recipe was, in my opinion, a mess, and so far from a saison that he would have been upset with the end result.

Obviously, the OP doesn't much care, and just wants to experiment and make beer, which is awesome regardless.
 
In have white wheat not sure if its malted or not but I added some two row as well so hopefully it works I added some Nelson the last min and decided against the brettanomyces I will save that for TRUE saison recipie I will no next week , thank you for the input I guess this will just a an identity crisis pale ale
 
Future reference, what's the two row to wheat ratio and does any one have a true saison recipie for me with extract and brettanomyces !!? Please and thank you ALL again
 
If you're using malted North American wheat, it can convert itself plus 3-4x its weight in non-diastatic grains (anything flaked, crystal/caramel/toasted/roasted). Malted European wheat is probably closer to itself plus 2x. If you're using flaked or raw wheat, then you'd need some 2-row. North Am 2-row can convert itself plus 3x its weight. If you're using pilsner, Vienna, or malted American rye, they'll convert about 2x. Munich is in some weird middle zone where it will convert itself, but not much else.

To me, a true saison doesn't include brett. If you want to brew a saison and add brett, I have no objection. But brett tends to so dominate the flavor of the beer that anything with brett is a brett beer, not a whatever it was before you added brett. Just my feelings on the issue.

You can brew a very easy saison by using light extract to get your desired gravity and adding the saison yeast of your choice. There are about a half-dozen available, and they all behave very differently. If you already have 3711, that's the most user-friendly of the bunch. Use whatever hops you have to get IBUs that are about half your gravity, and add whatever hops you want (usually a noble, but it's wide-open) to add your desired flavors at flameout. If you want to dress it up, you can mix in wheat, rye, vienna, munich, or biscuit malts. Wheat is available as an extract as well.
 
In have white wheat not sure if its malted or not but I added some two row as well so hopefully it works

flaked wheat looks similar to the oatmeal which you cook for breakfast. it's flat. white wheat will be round and look similar to 2-row. that's the malted version.

Future reference, what's the two row to wheat ratio and does any one have a true saison recipie for me with extract and brettanomyces !!? Please and thank you ALL again
i linked to an extract recipe on the first page. follow that, add brett, and wait 6 months.

To me, a true saison doesn't include brett. If you want to brew a saison and add brett, I have no objection. But brett tends to so dominate the flavor of the beer that anything with brett is a brett beer, not a whatever it was before you added brett. Just my feelings on the issue.

eh, brett can indeed be over-powering but saisons are one of they few styles that stand up to brett. the saison yeast typically get gravity so low there isn't all that much left for the brett. and saison yeast throws enough of its own flavors to hold its own. although brett isn't part of the BJCP's definition of saison, it is historically accurate to include brett.
 
I would add that if you plan to do Brett, you may not want to use 3711 as your yeast. It's a monster that will consume almost all the sugars (my last one finished at 1.000!). Maybe 3724 then when it craps out add your Brett.
 
I would add that if you plan to do Brett, you may not want to use 3711 as your yeast. It's a monster that will consume almost all the sugars (my last one finished at 1.000!). Maybe 3724 then when it craps out add your Brett.
3711 can go ridiculously low however my 3711 batch finished at 1.007, so YMMV. if it does goes that dry and you want to use brett, throw in an ounce or two of malto-dextrine when you pitch the brett. brett can eat that, sacc (like 3711) can't. you don't want to over-feed the brett.
 
Back
Top