Reformulating my house Pale Ale. What do you think?

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BendBrewer said:
Sure. http://www.britishbrewer.com/2010/03/hop-bursting/

They do the math but in conclusion:

"So we have an ale with the same IBU made with the same hops as the traditional bittering method except the hop load is 5 1/2 oz as compared with 1.2 oz giving us an really BIG hop flavour and aroma. "
Click to expand...

On that recipe, they're going right down to the wire with their big hop additions, so the bitterness utilization is a lot less. If you read it, 3 ounces are being added just a minute before flameout. At that point you're going to need a TON of hops to get any bitterness contribution at all. Most of the bitterness is coming from the 15, 10, and 5 minute additions, which is all of 2 1/2 oz, about twice the original amount. They're not saying it takes 4 times as many hops to get the same amount of bitterness as from an early addition. They're saying they used 4x as many hops to increase the hop flavor and aroma.
 
Also check out the IBU versus Bittering thread that is being discussed now. Some good info on using those calculators and how just a shot in the dark they really are.
 
bernerbrau said:
On that recipe, they're going right down to the wire with their big hop additions, so the bitterness utilization is a lot less. If you read it, 3 ounces are being added just a minute before flameout. At that point you're going to need a TON of hops to get any bitterness contribution at all.
Click to expand...

Right. I think they call that Hop Bursting. Adding massive amounts of hops at the end. That's what I thought it meant. Not sure what you're doing but I am sure it will be good. Enjoy your beer.
 
Brownie, I can tell you from experience and having made several 110-130 IBU hop-burst beers (using Tinseth) they never have the bitterness of the FWH or 60 or 90 min boil additions... at least not the bitterness as you're used to tasting from beers that are hopped with the intent to have a noticeable hop bitterness (A pale ale certainly qualifies in this category).

JMO, but if you are going to stick to the plan to add hops only within the last 20 minutes or so, you're going to want to aim for a "higher than you would otherwise aim" IBU level. In other words, try aiming for something like 60-70 IBU if 45 is your comparable target. Do you follow?

Otherwise, you can easily add something like Perle at the start of the boil just to kick the bitterness up and then hopburst for the flavor and aroma character you're going for.
 
BendBrewer said:
Also check out the IBU versus Bittering thread that is being discussed now. Some good info on using those calculators and how just a shot in the dark they really are.
Click to expand...

OK, just to be clear here. Your original argument is that I won't get 44 IBU from my given schedule, because you need 4x the number of hops for bittering that you do for a "normal" hop schedule.

I showed you a calculation using the tinseth method, and you said that formulas are extremely inaccurate.

I asked for evidence of the 4x claim, you pointed me to a website that used 4x the original amount, but added most of them at the end of the boil where they contribute very little bitterness if any. Not only that, but to get equivalent IBUs when making the recipe, they used the same formula that you claim doesn't work!

So finally you just fall back on "the calculators don't work."

I'm trying to understand your point but everything you've given me so far has been hearsay, misinterpreted evidence, and a flimsy argument that IBU calculators don't work, and therefore I won't get enough bitterness.

I can accept that IBU calculators can only approximate and that their accuracy is disputed, but you have yet to explain to me why, with two hop schedules that yield the same IBU using the same formula, one of them will not be properly bittered.

I can't take your advice if it flies in the face of all my experience, and when I press you for evidence, you give me something that even the most casual of analysis shows does not support your claim. You have to give me something better than "the calculators don't work."
 
Randar said:
Brownie, I can tell you from experience and having made several 110-130 IBU hop-burst beers (using Tinseth) they never have the bitterness of the FWH or 60 or 90 min boil additions... at least not the bitterness as you're used to tasting from beers that are hopped with the intent to have a noticeable hop bitterness (A pale ale certainly qualifies in this category).

JMO, but if you are going to stick to the plan to add hops only within the last 20 minutes or so, you're going to want to aim for a "higher than you would otherwise aim" IBU level. In other words, try aiming for something like 60-70 IBU is 45 is your comparable target. Do you follow?

Otherwise, you can easily add something like Perle at the start of the boil just to kick the bitterness up and then hopburst for the flavor and aroma character you're going for.
Click to expand...

All right. This is actually useful, thanks. Now, I know one major reason for hop bursting is that it softens the harsh bitterness from a big early addition. Would you say the difference is in the actual perceived amount of bitterness, or is it more of a different kind of bitterness, like say a "sharp" vs "round" bitterness?

And does the reduced perception of bitterness carry over from really high IBU beers down to more balanced stuff like an APA, or is it relative to the target IBU number?
 
Do whatever you want. I expect my Pale Ales to be bitter and that recipe you originally posted doesn't look bitter to me. Maybe that is what you are going for, I don't know.

I'll stick with my understanding that Hop Bursting is adding massive amounts of hops late in the boil. You seem to think it means adding slightly more hops in the middle. I don't know who is right and it doesn't matter. You like your beers and I like mine. Mine don't lack anything however.

Really, Cheers man! Didn't mean to make it an argument.

:mug:
 
bernerbrau said:
All right. This is actually useful, thanks. Now, I know one major reason for hop bursting is that it softens the harsh bitterness from a big early addition. Would you say the difference is in the actual perceived amount of bitterness, or is it more of a different kind of bitterness, like say a "sharp" vs "round" bitterness?
Click to expand...

Yes? :D

I think what most people associate with hop bitterness is a little bite in the back of the tongue/throat. Can it be more subtle? Or more "round" as you say? Sure, but it's hard to compare that to the IBU expectation that you have built from previous sampling/brewing/formulating experience.

Right now I have a hopburst Summit IPA at 110 Tinseth IBU that has no real bitter harshness, which is something you'd certainly expect from a normally-hopped at start of boil IPA with even 75-80 IBU. Is there bitterness there? Yes, but since it's balanced by malt and alcohol and without the harsh character, how do you even know what is and isn't bitter? I have not had a commercial IPA that claimed 110 IBU that was without the harshness of early bittering additions.

In other words, I am not sure how much the IBU formulations really do for you if all your hops are in the last 20 min. My approach was to plan the malt profile and fermentation targets to plan that it was a lesser-hopped IPA and I used more malt-forward malts (Vienna, Munich, Biscuit, Victory, etc) to help the malt show through the intense aroma/flavor you're going to get from the late additions. Did this simply balance out the bitterness? Perhaps?!?!?

I haven't done any massive studies on it or read up on the science of the perception of bitterness, so hopefully mt experience is just a datapoint for you to consider. In the end, you're going to brew a beer and make tweaks based on the outcome... so get to brewing and decide for yourself how it needs to be tweaked to account for the late additions and the profile you're trying to achieve.
 
BendBrewer said:
Do whatever you want. I expect my Pale Ales to be bitter and that recipe you originally posted doesn't look bitter to me. Maybe that is what you are going for, I don't know.

I'll stick with my understanding that Hop Bursting is adding massive amounts of hops late in the boil. You seem to think it means adding slightly more hops in the middle. I don't know who is right and it doesn't matter. You like your beers and I like mine. Mine don't lack anything however.

Really, Cheers man! Didn't mean to make it an argument.

:mug:
Click to expand...

Nah, no worries. I just get intense when I argue, and I argue when I disagree.

Yes, I am shooting for balanced. I like bitterness, but I want to be able to taste everything that goes into an APA as well. I've got an IPA in primary right now, and when I want bitterness, that's where I'm gonna look.

My understanding of hop bursting is getting most or all of your bitterness from mid to late boil hop additions, so that you don't boil off the aroma compounds from your bittering additions. To me that can include changing .5 ounces of Simcoe at 60 to a full ounce at 15.

And 5 oz overall, 2 oz at flameout isn't exactly what I'd call "slight".
 
bernerbrau said:
And does the reduced perception of bitterness carry over from really high IBU beers down to more balanced stuff like an APA, or is it relative to the target IBU number?
Click to expand...

I have not tried hop-bursting below about 75 IBU target, so I can't say for sure. Based on what I have seen it does extend downward but I couldn't say at what point the differences become undetectable.
 
Randar said:
Yes? :D

I think what most people associate with hop bitterness is a little bite in the back of the tongue/throat. Can it be more subtle? Or more "round" as you say? Sure, but it's hard to compare that to the IBU expectation that you have built from previous sampling/brewing/formulating experience.

Right now I have a hopburst Summit IPA at 110 Tinseth IBU that has no real bitter harshness, which is something you'd certainly expect from a normally-hopped at start of boil IPA with even 75-80 IBU. Is there bitterness there? Yes, but since it's balanced by malt and alcohol and without the harsh character, how do you even know what is and isn't bitter? I have not had a commercial IPA that claimed 110 IBU that was without the harshness of early bittering additions.

In other words, I am not sure how much the IBU formulations really do for you if all your hops are in the last 20 min. My approach was to plan the malt profile and fermentation targets to plan that it was a lesser-hopped IPA and I used more malt-forward malts (Vienna, Munich, Biscuit, Victory, etc) to help the malt show through the intense aroma/flavor you're going to get from the late additions. Did this simply balance out the bitterness? Perhaps?!?!?

I haven't done any massive studies on it or read up on the science of the perception of bitterness, so hopefully mt experience is just a datapoint for you to consider. In the end, you're going to brew a beer and make tweaks based on the outcome... so get to brewing and decide for yourself how it needs to be tweaked to account for the late additions and the profile you're trying to achieve.
Click to expand...

That's fair enough. The lack of an anticipated "bite" from an early hop addition is something to consider.

Maybe I'll do 10 gallons and split the batch, doing a traditional bittering in one and the late bittering in the other.
 
I think I'm gonna be sending BendBrewer a couple bottles of the late hop version if it comes out good. THEN he can tell me my problem is bitterness :D
 
Just got back from reading. I just googled "hop bursting" and found the articles sighted and a little more.

The "sharp" vs "round" bittering is spot on when it comes to hop bursting. The later additions being smoother. Also, the bitterness that is missing by removing the early additions is the bite you get on the front end, not the finish.
 
bernerbrau said:
I think I'm gonna be sending BendBrewer a couple bottles of the late hop version if it comes out good. THEN he can tell me my problem is bitterness :D
Click to expand...

Let's see if I add all my hops at 5 minutes and I want about 50 IBUs...

That'll be seven ounces of Chinooks. :eek:
 
bernerbrau, I'd love to have a try of some of your stuff. I recently made a 62 ish IBU Brown IPA(first try and a bit weak on the malt), and a buddy that lives in Murfreesboro made a 58ish IBU IPA both being 60 minute bitterness boils. We could swap some HB and compare the bitterness factors from the two. :) Beerkrump you in too?

:mug:
 
I've got a stout and an ofest on tap right now, and a bock that's busy carbing, should be ready this weekend depending on the clarity. But I am running a tabletop game this weekend so probably not a good time to get together. Maybe when this bad boy is kegged and carbed.
 
I've been craving a stout, but want to have one for winter time. Ofest is awesome. Yeah this weekend is a no go for me. Same for next weekend...and the one after that. Wedding Anniversary-my birthday-my wife's birthday. So maybe mid to end of June. If any of the IPA's are left. :) OT for your House Ale, what tabletop game?
 
Call of Cthulhu.

Long ago, a terrible ancient alien race from a distant planet was imprisoned in gold statues and scattered across the universe in exile. Of course some of these wound up on Earth, deep below the surface, and when mankind evolved they began influencing people telepathically. Now it's the 1920s and people are starting to find and dig them up. Once a statue forms a strong enough mental link with a host, they will merge forms with the host and awaken to resume their ancient reign of destruction.

This has happened to at least two people already.

Of course none of the players know what the crap these statues are yet, and they are only vaguely aware of them right now. Last session they spent the whole time underground trying to kill an avatar of Y'golonac because a mob member blackmailed them into it.

Still working on the clues that are going to tie all this together.
 
As far as help with your beer/process while the late hop addition seems to provide that bitterness quality with a softer end to it. After reading this whole discussion I would try something like the Horizon or Magnum hops with low Co-humulone. Rebel claims Magnum has 24% Co-humulone and that causes a softer bitterness. Say like 1 oz at the begining, or even a half. 1 oz by Beersmith rings in around 47 IBU. Half that is 23IBU. Then you can do less Late hop additions or closer to the end of the boil to bring it up more, get that smoother end with possibly just a bit more bite and still get the late hop addition with bitterness and aroma oils.

But that is only if you think the hop suggestion has anything to do with it.
Other than that it looks good to me.
 
Nashbrewer said:
As far as help with your beer/process while the late hop addition seems to provide that bitterness quality with a softer end to it. After reading this whole discussion I would try something like the Horizon or Magnum hops with low Co-humulone. Rebel claims Magnum has 24% Co-humulone and that causes a softer bitterness. Say like 1 oz at the begining, or even a half. 1 oz by Beersmith rings in around 47 IBU. Half that is 23IBU. Then you can do less Late hop additions or closer to the end of the boil to bring it up more, get that smoother end with possibly just a bit more bite and still get the late hop addition with bitterness and aroma oils.

But that is only if you think the hop suggestion has anything to do with it.
Other than that it looks good to me.
Click to expand...

Hmm. Well, if I go the split batch route, I'd like to keep the hop schedule as similar as possible. So maybe half the simcoe at 60 and half at the original planned time.
 
1oz Perle @20 (7.5% AA)
1oz Simcoe @15 (14.4% AA) 38.6 IBU contribution
1oz Cascade @10 (7.4% AA)14.5 IBU contribution
1oz Perle @Flameout (7.5% AA)
1oz Cascade @Flameout (7.5% AA)
Click to expand...


Was the original hop schedule. With a total of 53.1-57.1 IBU.
So if you are going to do a split you want to do one with the above schedule. And then do the 60 minute hope boil one with
.5oz Simcoe @ 60 min(14.4% AA) 26 IBU contribution
1oz Perle @20 (7.5% AA) 16.4 IBU contribution
.5oz Simcoe @15 (14.4% AA) 10.9 IBU contribution
1oz Cascade @10 (7.4% AA) 0 IBU
1oz Perle @Flameout (7.5% AA) 0 IBU

This is based on Beersmith. I figure the last two will provide some IBU's since until the beer is down to temp it would continue to work on them, but it would be minimal. 1-4 IBU I guess. So a total of 53.3-57.3 IBU.

I think that would be a pretty awesome comparison.

I threw this together so people can just look at the numbers and compare with out having to
think too hard. Ya know :tank:
 
I'd be up for a swap. I've got an IPA on tap and a stout, cream ale, and apfelwien bottled.

In fermenters are a RIS, DIPA, and another IPA.

Some of this I'm saving for the 4th of July.

My schedule is nuts though. I've got four kids and little free time.
 
bernerbrau said:
Call of Cthulhu.
Click to expand...

DUUUUUUUUDE!

cthulhu-evolution.png


:D

SO happy to find other gamers on here. Haven't played CoC in fifteen years. Running a 1E AD&D game every Monday, playing 4E every Wednesday, Pathfinder on the odd weekend.

When I finally hit on the beer I think can't be tweaked, I'm calling it "Natty 20".
:mug:

Bob
 
Bob said:
DUUUUUUUUDE!

cthulhu-evolution.png


:D

SO happy to find other gamers on here. Haven't played CoC in fifteen years. Running a 1E AD&D game every Monday, playing 4E every Wednesday, Pathfinder on the odd weekend.

When I finally hit on the beer I think can't be tweaked, I'm calling it "Natty 20".
:mug:

Bob
Click to expand...

Cool. I'm in 2 Pathfinder games, and I'm running CoC whenever I can manage to get 5 or more of my players together.
 
So I finally got this on tap, both the "traditional" hopped and all-late hopped versions. And... it's kind of strange. While the traditionally hopped version has a little more bite to it, the hop aroma and flavor are extremely subtle for both, while the biscuit, despite having only 4 oz of it, dominates the palate.

I suspect this has something to do with my decision to use whole hops without any real way of straining them. I think it really hurt my utilization because the hops sucked up a bunch of the wort that got left behind.

It's not bad. It definitely tastes similar to Fat Tire. However, if I re-brew this, I'm going to opt for pellet hops (if I can even find any Simcoe before 2012).
 
Got a re-brew for this one planned.

Since Simcoe is scarce, I'm gonna opt for Citra. Pellet instead of leaf hops, and I'm thinking Denny's Favorite for the yeast, since I'm not a fan of what the Cal V does for this beer.

The verdict on the hop-burst/traditional bittering comparison suggests that it could benefit from an early hop addition, so I'm going to go with that one. I am also going to drop the biscuit and try 8-16oz of vienna. The biscuit in the last batch was almost over the top.
 
All right, here's the recipe for the re-brew. Think I found a place online that will ship Simcoe pellets from this year's harvest.

9lbs 2-row
6oz C-60
12oz Vienna

Mash 60min @152F

.5oz Simcoe @60
1oz Perle @20
.5oz Simcoe @15
1oz Cascade @10
1oz Cascade @0
1oz Perle @0

2 pkgs. S-04, rehydrated
Ferment low 60s for 10 days, crash 4 days and keg

Hoping to brew this weekend or next. I will report back on the results.
 
Re-brew is good, but a little lacking on the hop flavor. I'm thinking 1oz of Cascade or Perle right at the 30-minute mark.

Next re-brew I'm going to use Maffewl's bottle-harvested Sierra Nevada yeast. Should be a tasty one.
 
If I'm not mistaken, doesn't sierra nevada bottle condition with us-05? I recently bottle harvested from a snpa but ended up tossing it after I found it was nothing special.
 
I didn't read every single page of this thread, but have you ever played around with dry-hopping for your pale ales? It just seems like you have covered almost every other possible method/boil time for hopping, but I didn't see dry hopping even considered.

I am about to do my first dry-hop this weekend, so it may just be on my mind, but I figure if you are searching for some subtle difference in hop flavors/bitterness/bite it is another variable to play with.
 
frozt said:
If I'm not mistaken, doesn't sierra nevada bottle condition with us-05? I recently bottle harvested from a snpa but ended up tossing it after I found it was nothing special.
Click to expand...

Hmm. Well, I tried a beer brewed with the harvested yeast, and it seemed to have some of that Sierra Nevada character. So I'll see what happens.

LowNotes said:
I didn't read every single page of this thread, but have you ever played around with dry-hopping for your pale ales? It just seems like you have covered almost every other possible method/boil time for hopping, but I didn't see dry hopping even considered.

I am about to do my first dry-hop this weekend, so it may just be on my mind, but I figure if you are searching for some subtle difference in hop flavors/bitterness/bite it is another variable to play with.
Click to expand...

I've certainly dry hopped before. It's not quite what I'm after right now. This will be about the 4th or 5th re-brew for me, and I'm finding it lacking in hop flavor right now (not aroma so much) so I'm going for a mid addition.

Also, even if you don't read every page, it's still a good idea to check the date of the original post :)
 
Additional thoughts after having a few more pints of this. I had some family members try this beer this weekend and they really seemed to enjoy it.

Everyone remarked on the fruitiness. This beer is really really fruity, so fruity that I originally thought that there was a yeast issue. But after having a couple HBTers try it, I'm convinced the fruit all comes from the Simcoe and Cascade.

The bitterness is slightly out of balance, but I'm experiencing low efficiency lately and I'm not sure why. I will add a pound of 2-row, check my temps, mash thicker and sparge in more batches next time. The S-04 is great with this beer, so I'm not going to change a thing there.

I'm thinking I need an extra ounce or two of Perle to balance out the sweet fruityness from the Simcoe/Cascade.

With that in mind, here's incarnation 3 of the recipe:

10lbs 2-row
6oz C-60
12oz Vienna

Mash 60min @152F

.5oz Simcoe @60
.5oz Simcoe @30
1oz Perle @20
2oz Perle @10
1oz Cascade @10
1oz Cascade @1
1oz Perle @1

2 pkgs. S-04, rehydrated
Ferment low 60s for 10 days, crash 4 days and keg
 

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