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Bassaholic

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Hey guys,

I accidentally posted this thread on the beginner brewing forum, so I'm reposting it here.

So this is the second recipe I've attempted to put together. So far all my brews have been a partial mash and came out pretty well. I designed this recipe for a deep red colored american pale ale and I was wondering if anyone could guide me in the right direction.

OG: 1.065
FG: 1.016
IBU: 43

Grain Bill:
6.6 lbs Light LME
1 lb American Pale 2 Row
1 lb Carared
8 oz Melanoidin Malt - Maybe only 4 oz?
8 oz Caramel 80L
4 oz Carafa II - Too Much?
4 oz White Wheat Malt - Need for head retention?

Hops:
1 oz Warrior @ 60 min
1 oz Zythos @ 10 min
1 oz Citra @ 10 min
1 oz Citra @ 5 min
1 oz Zythos - Dryhop
1 oz Citra - Dryhop

Yeast:
Wyeast 1272 All American Ale - Better than 1056 for high flocc?

So i know it might be a little hoppier than an average pale ale, but I'm fine with that. Also I'm not totally set on my hop schedule, though I would like to try the Citra as I've never used it and have some sitting in my freezer, other than that I'm very flexible. Also, I plugged the recipe into BeerSmith and it said that the SRM would be 20.5, so that's a little dark maybe? Another question I had was if 1 lb of base malt is enough to make an efficient partial mash. Any feedback would be greatly appreciated. Someone on the other forum commented that its sort of between an APA and an IPA, so I should either up the hops or decrease the malt. Which do you think would be a better option?

Thanks
 
You're essentially making an American Amber Ale. The west-coast versions of that style tend to be very hoppy (usually called West-Coast Reds).

Ya, you have too much carafa in there. You're treading on Brown-Ale territory in terms of color. Shoot for around 17-18 SRM for a really nice deep, blood-red.

I wouldn't change anything else other than the color adjustment though. That's a pretty good looking American Amber Ale.
 
Thanks for the input. I think I'll probably just nix the carafa and see if that brings me down into that range. I just have to wait for my Belgian ipa to finish dry hopping then I can get started on this brew!
 
So I think I settled on dropping out the Carafa and upping the Melanoidin to a full pound and adding 8 oz of Caramel 60L as well. On BeerSmith that brought me up to 15.4 SRM. I dont think I want the flavor profile of the Chocolate Malt. But I am still open to suggestion as I probably won't be brewing until next weekend.
 
1lb of Melanoidin is quite a bit. A little bit of Chocolate malt makes very little flavor impact. You won't taste 2-3oz in a beer with a bunch of crystal malt.

6.6 lbs Light LME
1 lb American Pale 2 Row
1 lb Carared
8 oz Melanoidin Malt
8 oz Caramel 80L
1.5-2oz Chocolate

That should get you in the 16-17L range depending on the SRM of your extract.
 
You should not sense the flavor profile of chocolate malt by only using 2% or so. Just the color contribution.

"Use in all beer styles for color adjustment. The rich roasted coffee, cocoa flavor is
very complementary when used in higher percentages (up to 10%) in Porter, Stout,
Brown Ale or any other dark beer."
 
Huh I guess that makes sense that such a small amount wouldn't affect the flavor all that much. I was also wondering if there is any point, other than color, in using multiple caramel/crystal malt (ie 60L and 80L) or if I should just stick to the 80L.
 
I brewed something similar. Melanoidin is pretty potent as far as flavor and color go. When you crush that baby you can tell form the pungent aroma. I used half a pound and was satisfied with the "red" character of the beer.

My grain bill was:

11 lb pale ale
0.5 lb medium crystal
0.5 melanoidin
 
I was also wondering if there is any point, other than color, in using multiple caramel/crystal malt (ie 60L and 80L) or if I should just stick to the 80L.

You can stack crystal malts for added complexity. But keep in mind, you also have CaraRed in there... That's equal to Crystal 20. So if you add C-60 with the C-80, you'll have 3 types of crystal malts.

The big thing (for an IPA type beer) is the amount of crystal malt used. Keep it below 10%. I prefer 0-6% myself.
 
So do I take into account the extract I'm using in the percentage, or just the grains that I'm mashing? If I do account for the extract is there a conversion for lbs of extract to lbs of grain?
 
Thanks that's a useful chart. If I take out the 60L that leaves me right around 10% caramel malt, plus whatever is in the extract. Maybe I will go with the extra pale just to be safe.
 
I just brewed this on Saturday and so far so good. I made a 1.5 liter starter and its fermenting like crazy and started after only 4 hours. Unfortunately my primary is a 5 gallon carboy with a blowoff tube attached and I have lost a good amount of beer and well over 2 full cups of yeast. Time to invest in a bigger carboy!!

I'm fermenting near the top range of temps for 1272; I pitched at 68F and from there it rose up to 72F and fluctuated around 69-72. It smells wonderful and fruity.

The final recipe I ended up using was this:

6.6 lbs Light LME
1 lb American 2 row
1 lb Carared
8 oz Melanoidin
8 oz Carmel malt 80L
4 oz White Wheat malt
2 oz Chocolate malt

1 oz Citra @ FWH
1 oz Warrior @ 60 min
1 oz Zythos @ 10 min
1 oz Citra @ Flameout
1 oz Zythos dry hop
1 oz Citra dry hop

Mashed in @ 154F for 60 min
Mashed out @ 168 for 10 min

I used a whirlfloc tablet and added the majority of the LME near the end of the boil. The wort came out a nice reddish brown color, but now it looks like peanut butter in the fermenter because of all the yeast. I'll keep updating this as I go.
 
You ended up with about 16% crystal malts (Carared & C80) not including whatever was in the extract. Combine this with mashing at 154 F, using no simple sugars to aid further drying, fluctuating ferm. temps. and I wouldn't be surprised if it stalls at 1.020 FG and ends up tasting rather sweet.
 
I calculate 12% after converting the LME to grain equivalent. Also I don't think there's much caramel malt in the LME I used. Anyway, I've heard of people adding sugars to the fermenter, I know that's usually with bigger beers, but would that help drop my fg? Also my estimated fg was at 1.017 which isn't all that far off anyway. Do you think the amount of hops is enough to counterbalance the sweetness?
 
6.6 lbs Light LME
1 lb American 2 row
1 lb Carared
8 oz Melanoidin
8 oz Carmel malt 80L
4 oz White Wheat malt
2 oz Chocolate malt

= 9 lbs. 10 oz., which is approximately 9.625 lbs.

16% of 9.625 lbs. would give you an approx. 1.54 lbs. (which equals about 1 lb. 8 oz. crystal malt)

You don't convert to gauge the % measurement. 9.625 lbs. is your grist weight so base it off of this number.

Adding a lb. of sugar at this point won't really help you since all of that crystal malt is already in the beer. I don't think that amount of hops will help either. So it won't really help with dryness or taste... It may thin out the body a little bit though. The good news is that you will still have a drinkable beer... just not anything like Nugget Nectar, Red's Rye, or comparable Red IPAs.
 
You ended up with about 16% crystal malts (Carared & C80) not including whatever was in the extract. Combine this with mashing at 154 F, using no simple sugars to aid further drying, fluctuating ferm. temps. and I wouldn't be surprised if it stalls at 1.020 FG and ends up tasting rather sweet.

Yes, but some of the best American reds I've ever had have had 15% crystal malt, so I think it's fine since it's so well hopped.
 
Yes, but some of the best American reds I've ever had have had 15% crystal malt, so I think it's fine since it's so well hopped.

Which Red IPA was this?

And was it 15% crystal malt, or 15% combined carapils and crystal malts?

There's a huggggggggggge difference.

And I don't think that only 6 oz. total hops in a 5 gallon batch is considered to be well-hopped, but that's just me.
 
Which Red IPA was this?

And was it 15% crystal malt, or 15% combined carapils and crystal malts?

There's a huggggggggggge difference.

And I don't think that only 6 oz. total hops in a 5 gallon batch is considered to be well-hopped, but that's just me.

Not a red IPA- an American red. Summit Red Horizon.

For an American red, 6 oz of hops is fine. I didn't think we were talking about an IPA. A nice hoppy American red is a great beer, and 15% crystal is fine.

From our wiki (written by a fellow Bob!)
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/wiki/index.php/American_Amber_Ale

The key is "sweet and hoppy".
 
Go back to the opener. He wanted to make a Red APA recipe more like a Red IPA.

Summit Red Horizon was just a decent American Red Ale for me. I'm thinking more along the lines of Maine Beer Co. Zoe, Troegs Nugget Nectar, or Founders Reds Rye. These are way more flavorful in both malt and hop character.
 
Go back to the opener. He wanted to make a Red APA recipe more like a Red IPA.

Summit Red Horizon was just a decent American Red Ale for me. I'm thinking more along the lines of Maine Beer Co. Zoe, Troegs Nugget Nectar, or Founders Reds Rye. These are way more flavorful in both malt and hop character.

Ah, but when you talk about American reds, the key is "sweet and hoppy", and 15% crystal malt is indeed common. It won't be too sweet, if the OP is looking for a sweeter and yet hoppy beer. Rigidly comparing it to a typical American IPA, when it isn't, is making it look like the beer will be a sweet underhopped mess- and it isn't. It's not a bad red at all, and the hops character will come through.

I saw nowhere posted that the OP wanted an IPA, but red in color. I saw he wanted a red APA (American red), and it's a good solid American red.
 
Ah, but when you talk about American reds, the key is "sweet and hoppy", and 15% crystal malt is indeed common.

I don't agree. I think of an APA or IPA base with red color and a little more malt character than you're used to, but not necessarily sweet. - North Coast Red Seal and GF Hop Head Red are a few more examples. Those 5 reds I mentioned are some of the top rated in the American Red category by far.

Forget to remind you of his original thread as well in that last statement I made - https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/red-apa-recipe-feedback-385570/
 
I don't agree. I think of an APA or IPA base with red color and a little more malt character than you're used to, but not necessarily sweet.

Forget to remind you of his original thread as well in that last statement I made - https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/red-apa-recipe-feedback-385570/

You certainly don't have to agree with me- but read the article on making an American red, and read the BJCP guidelines. It might not be to your taste, but it a widely recognized beer style, and it's a solid recipe for an American red.

I see you telling the OP to make a red IPA, but I see nowhere where HE wanted one!
 
Thanks for the input, I'm still pretty new to brewing and just started formulating my own recipes so any feedback is gladly welcomed. I have a feeling this will turn out pretty well and also be a good learning experience. I already realized that I need a bigger fermenter as I lost well over 2 cups of yeast as well as some beer thru my blowoff tube.
 
I never was one for agreeing with the BJCP.

If they say an American Red should taste like Killian's Irish Red, then I say they should go take a hike.

An American red doesn't necessarily have to be hoppy, but it does usually start with an APA or IPA foundation. Thus, it's very similar to these styles with a little more malt complexity and red color.

I see that the OPs hop schedule was IPA-esque... He also said,

'this might be a little hoppier than average, but i'm fine with that'

'I would like to try the Citra'

All signs that he wanted something more like a hoppy Red IPA than a sweet malty red.
 
Yooper said:
Ah, but when you talk about American reds, the key is "sweet and hoppy", and 15% crystal malt is indeed common. It won't be too sweet, if the OP is looking for a sweeter and yet hoppy beer. Rigidly comparing it to a typical American IPA, when it isn't, is making it look like the beer will be a sweet underhopped mess- and it isn't. It's not a bad red at all, and the hops character will come through.

I saw nowhere posted that the OP wanted an IPA, but red in color. I saw he wanted a red APA (American red), and it's a good solid American red.

You are spot on yooper. I originally wanted a hoppy pale ale, but with a red color and heavier body. I now realize that is an American red ale. Even if it doesn't come out perfectly, I'll still drink it. Thanks for the reassurance tho.
 
I never was one for agreeing with the BJCP.

If they say an American Red should taste like Killian's Irish Red, then I say they should go take a hike.

Well, they don't suggest Killians as even an Irish red as it's a lager and not at all an Irish red.

(Read the wiki, please- it's a great write up of an American amber/ American red and the goals for the beer, which is totally in line with the OP's desires).
 
Well, they don't suggest Killians as even an Irish red as it's a lager and not at all an Irish red.

Even so, Killians falls under what would be considered the American Red Lager style... Just using a loose example of what people would normally blurt out when asked to name a popular red ale. It's more of an Irish-inspired red lager than actual Irish in design.

The wiki writeup claims they are sweet beers with full body, a lot of balance, and grassy hop notes. I don't agree with this. Red Seal Ale is one of the archtypes and is far from these descriptors. It's dry, pleasant, complex, malty, bitter, citrusy, and floral.

Please read what I gathered above from what the OP originally wrote about his desires. I italicized it for you. After his most recent comment, it appears that he must have been previously confused about what he wanted.
 
All this talk about reds made me remember that I kicked a keg of IPA last night, and stuck a new keg in there to chill. I just tapped it and took a tiny sample (it's 10 AM here, so early even for me!). It's a lower OG version of Red Rocket, so it's not as big. But it's really good. It's got the citrusy notes, along with a hint of caramel sweetness and toffee.

Here's the recipe (10 gallons):
15 lbs Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 3 69.4 %
2 lbs Munich Malt (9.0 SRM) Grain 4 9.2 %
1 lbs Caramel Malt - 20L (Briess) (20.0 SRM) Grain 5 4.6 %
1 lbs Caramel Malt - 60L (Briess) (60.0 SRM) Grain 6 4.6 %
1 lbs White Wheat Malt (2.4 SRM) Grain 7 4.6 %
8.0 oz Caramel Malt - 120L (Briess) (120.0 SRM) Grain 8 2.3 %
8.0 oz Caramel Malt - 80L 6-Row (Briess) (80.0 SRM) Grain 9 2.3 %
6.0 oz Amber (Crisp) (27.5 SRM) Grain 10 1.7 %
4.0 oz Chocolate malt (pale) (200.0 SRM) Grain 11 1.2 %

1.00 oz Northern Brewer [10.00 %] - First Wort 60.0 min Hop 12 17.2 IBUs
2.00 oz Cascade [8.00 %] - Boil 10.0 min Hop 15 10.0 IBUs
2.00 oz Centennial [9.60 %] - Boil 10.0 min Hop 16 12.0 IBUs
2.00 oz Cascade [8.00 %] - Boil 0.0 min Hop 17 0.0 IBUs
2.00 oz Centennial [9.60 %] - Boil 0.0 min Hop 18 0.0 IBUs
California ale yeast
OG 1.054 FG 1.010 (I think- don't really remember and didn't write it down!)
IBUs 39

This is a very nice American red, from the first sample. I think the level of sweetness should be close to the OP's.

There isn't really such a thing as an American or Irish red lager, and the BJCP guidelines don't suggest that there is. Killians might sell, but it's not an "authentic" anything.
 
Red Rocket is more of a hybrid American Red Ale / Wee Heavy... It's not an authentic American Red Ale anymore than Killians is an authentic Irish Red Lager.

Wee Heavy - Scotch Ales traditionally go through a long boil in the kettle for a caramelization of the wort. This produces a deep copper to brown in colored brew. Compared to Scottish Ales, they'll be sweeter and fuller-bodied, and of course higher in alcohol, with a much more pronounced malty caramel and roasted malt flavor.

An actual quote about Red Rocket...

"Red Rocket Ale is a bastardized Scottish style red ale that traces it's origins to our homebrew roots. This full bodied and hoppy brew finishes on the palate with sweet, caramel malt flavors."
 
An actual quote about Red Rocket...

"Red Rocket Ale is a bastardized Scottish style red ale that traces it's origins to our homebrew roots. This full bodied and hoppy brew finishes on the palate with sweet, caramel malt flavors."

Good thing that I didn't make a Red Rocket clone, then.
 
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