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Old 10-21-2012, 01:25 AM   #1
shaunvfx
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Default a REAL Hoptober Clone Recipe -- Need Input

Hey All -- my first post, and I will be brewing my own beer for the first time this week.

For my first brew, I would like to brew Hoptober (New Belgium) as it is a rotating seasonal and not available this year. For those of you who haven't had it, I have only heard praises from anyone I have asked to try it... and they turn around and buy cases to stock up.

In any case, I have been looking up clone recipes and I have yet to find any that come anywhere close (on paper) to what NB claims on their site.

Here is from NB on Hoptober
http://www.newbelgium.com/beer/detai...5-1a2721d12236
ABV - 6.0%
IBU - 40
Calories - 160
Hops - Centennial, Cascade, Sterling, Glacier, Willamette
Malts - Pale, Rye, Oats, C-80, Wheat
Body - Medium
Aroma - Bonfire of citrusy notes: think grapefruit, lemon, grassy and pine
Mouthfeel - Nice smooth start then finishes crisp


Any of the recipes that I have found seem to ignore the first 3 items, ABV, IBU and Calories. Most on average have an ABV of 5.7%, IBU in the 50s or 60s and Calories (after calculating using Hopville or BrewSmith) of 200+.

I think one of the reasons the beer is so drinkable, and you can almost plow through a whole six pack no problem is that the calories are low.

I have been trying to formulate a recipe that will yield 160 calories using all the ingredients mentioned but it seems that in order to get to 160 you need to have an OG of about ~1.05 and a FG of ~1.005. Unfortunately I have had to add a considerable amount of sugar to get to the correct calories and abv.... I have fiddled with this for quite some time and I am ready for help. I have also set Steep/mash temp to 148 for 70min and an overall efficiency of 72% (i know this could be high).

In any case here is the recipe I developed, i know the %'s are crazy but you get the general idea here. I have also included the calculations for abv, og, fg and calories.

1 lbs 13.7 oz Corn Sugar (Dextrose) (0.0 SRM) 24.1%
1 lbs 13.2 oz Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) 23.70%
1 lbs 10.4 oz Pale Liquid Extract (8.0 SRM) 21.50%
8.4 oz Rye, Flaked (2.0 SRM) 6.80%
4.2 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt - 80L (80.0 SRM) 3.40%
12.6 oz Wheat Malt, Ger (2.0 SRM) 10.20%
12.6 oz Oats, Flaked (1.0 SRM) 10.20%
1.00 oz Glacier [5.60 %] - Dry Hop 0.0 Days 0.0 IBUs
0.75 oz Sterling [7.50 %] - Boil 15.0 min 8.8 IBUs
0.50 oz Centennial [10.00 %] - Boil 60.0 min 15.8 IBUs
0.50 oz Willamette [5.50 %] - Boil 60.0 min 8.7 IBUs
0.50 oz Cascade [5.50 %] - Boil 30.0 min 6.7 IBUs
1.0 pkg California Ale V (White Labs #WLP051) [35.49 ml] -

Est Original Gravity: 1.051 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.005 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 6.0 %
Bitterness: 39.9 IBUs Calories: 166.2 kcal/12oz
Est Color: 6.3 SRM


If someone has the time to help me out I would very much appreciate it. I love this beer and would like to try and get close to it, I realize I have no idea the amount of anything they use, but all the ingredients are there. I will be doing partial mash.

You can check out this link for an average clone that is indicative of most I have found.

http://hopville.com/recipe/320695

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Old 10-21-2012, 03:03 AM   #2
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Default First beer

Congrats on getting your 1st homebrew under way! It is a great hobby!

So, this is you're very first batch of homebrew? IMHO, it seems to me you are tackeling a lot of additional complexity for your 1st beer: creating your own recipe, trying to clone a commerical beer, going for a mini-mash on your 1st beer, etc.

I think an extract kit is a great way to get started for any homebrewer. They sell many that clone popular beers, so you have a better idea of what you will end up with. You may want to start there and get familiar with the processes and equipment. Just my 2 cents..

However, if you are really going to go forward with something like a Hoptober clone, why not use one of the recipes you have already found?

As for the recipe you posted, is this for a 5 gallon batch? You definitely would want to replace the sugar with more Pale Liquid Malt Extract. Sugar would really thin out this beer, and you should be shooting for a low-medium mouthfeel. I would forget about the whole calorie aspect. Make good beer first and don't worry about the calories. IIRC, most calories come from alcohol anyways, so just lower your ABV to save the waistline.

You will need the crushed 2-row Pale malt to mash the Rye, Wheat & Oats. That's the mini-mash, and you'll want to do that with 1.25 quarts/pound of mash grains (e.g. 2-row + crystal + rye + wheat + oats ) @ 154-F.

To start with, a hop schedule should follow a rough guideline of: Bittering additions add with 60-mins left to boil. Flavor additions added with 30-min - 10 mins left. Aroma additions added with 8-min or less. (YMMV - to each their own.) Save yourself any trouble and don't worry about dryhopping at this point.


Again, as much as I love making my own recipe, you really should consider using a known recipe initially, and start experimenting from there.

Good luck and happy brewing!

--LexusChris

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Old 10-21-2012, 03:48 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LexusChris View Post
Congrats on getting your 1st homebrew under way! It is a great hobby!

So, this is you're very first batch of homebrew? IMHO, it seems to me you are tackeling a lot of additional complexity for your 1st beer: creating your own recipe, trying to clone a commerical beer, going for a mini-mash on your 1st beer, etc.

I think an extract kit is a great way to get started for any homebrewer. They sell many that clone popular beers, so you have a better idea of what you will end up with. You may want to start there and get familiar with the processes and equipment. Just my 2 cents..

However, if you are really going to go forward with something like a Hoptober clone, why not use one of the recipes you have already found?

As for the recipe you posted, is this for a 5 gallon batch? You definitely would want to replace the sugar with more Pale Liquid Malt Extract. Sugar would really thin out this beer, and you should be shooting for a low-medium mouthfeel. I would forget about the whole calorie aspect. Make good beer first and don't worry about the calories. IIRC, most calories come from alcohol anyways, so just lower your ABV to save the waistline.

You will need the crushed 2-row Pale malt to mash the Rye, Wheat & Oats. That's the mini-mash, and you'll want to do that with 1.25 quarts/pound of mash grains (e.g. 2-row + crystal + rye + wheat + oats ) @ 154-F.

To start with, a hop schedule should follow a rough guideline of: Bittering additions add with 60-mins left to boil. Flavor additions added with 30-min - 10 mins left. Aroma additions added with 8-min or less. (YMMV - to each their own.) Save yourself any trouble and don't worry about dryhopping at this point.


Again, as much as I love making my own recipe, you really should consider using a known recipe initially, and start experimenting from there.

Good luck and happy brewing!

--LexusChris
Hey Man, thanks for the encouragement. I have been lurking around here for a little while and now that I am a participant I figured I would start posting.

Yes this is for a 5 gallon batch.

I am a pretty precise guy by nature, I have a few friends that brew and modify recipes and such so I am familiar with the process I just haven't done it solo. Time for me to show my skills

The reason I am sort of fixated on the calories isn't because I care about making a "light" beer or whatever, it is more to preserve the character of the beer. It isn't a heavy beer at all, and I think the mouthfeel is coming from the oats and wheat which gives the illusion that the beer is heavier. In the description they mention crisp finish, which I remember from drinking last year, I wonder if that is from the dryness of the extra ABV vs the gravity of the beer.

In any case, I have all the hops for this recipe and will get the grains once I sort out the recipe. I may default to a recipe someone else has done as a last resort, but was curious if anyone else was interested in trying their luck and duplicating the ABV, and Calories.... the IBU is easy at least on paper.

I remember a citrus-y aroma so thats why I am heavy on the sterling at 30 minutes.

Basically, after doing the match.... the calories are heavily dependent on OG.... and then there is a balancing act with the FG -- too much alcohol increases calories as does not enough, its pretty intriguing... in any case after all the number crunching it seems that 1.05 is the answer for OG but I wonder if anyone else can come up with the same result (as did NB) without using sugar. It comes down to the conversion % of fermentable sugars... the wheat and pale just don't provide the right % even if you eliminated the other ingredients, which means there is a special ingredient I am unaware of that yields a huge conversion %, the calories on the site is dead wrong, or they are using sugar to augment.

Regardless if I do this recipe or not this week, it will be my goal to make this damn beer!! It is soo good.

Anyway, I appreciate your help and hope with time I can add back to this community.
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Old 10-21-2012, 05:16 AM   #4
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Default First beer clone

Being precise is okay... but it can also be overkill too. Remember, it's just beer.

Also, you are always better off making a good beer within your experience level, then going too far afield and coming up with something that nobody wants to drink. (I've done that ... so have many others )

Personally, I really think that chasing calories will only cause you to make bad choices about your beer. You are right that finishing gravity will determine the finish, the crispness. However, 1.005 is very very low. I would try this recipe at OG: 1.055 or so and a FG at 1.012 or so. That should get you a nice crisp ale with good hop character.

You could easily come up with several recipes based upon the ingredients on New Beglium's site, with different calorie counts, and different amounts of grains/hops, etc. .. and they would all be within 10% of each other on taste & enjoyment. My best advices it to: Relax. Don't worry about too many details. Have a homebrew.

That said, I put your ingredients into Beersmith 2.0 and played around with it until I got what I would try for a 1st attempt with a 5-gal partial mash setup. (Without trying to taste a Hoptoberfest and fine tune to match it)

Code:
Style: American Pale Ale
TYPE: Partial Mash

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Boil Size: 6.28 gal
Post Boil Volume: 5.72 gal
Batch Size (fermenter): 5.00 gal   
Bottling Volume: 4.75 gal
Estimated OG: 1.056 SG
Estimated Color: 9.0 SRM
Estimated IBU: 42.0 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 72.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 92.3 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt                   Name                                     Type          #        %/IBU         
1.50 lb               Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM)           Grain         1        17.1 %        
0.75 lb               Wheat Malt, Ger (2.0 SRM)                Grain         2        8.6 %         
0.50 lb               Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L (60.0 SRM)    Grain         3        5.7 %         
0.50 lb               Oats, Flaked (1.0 SRM)                   Grain         4        5.7 %         
0.50 lb               Rye, Flaked (2.0 SRM)                    Grain         5        5.7 %         
5.00 lb               Pale Liquid Extract (8.0 SRM)            Extract       6        57.1 %        
0.75 oz               Centennial [10.00 %] - Boil 60.0 min     Hop           7        26.1 IBUs     
0.50 oz               Cascade [5.50 %] - Boil 30.0 min         Hop           8        7.4 IBUs      
0.50 oz               Sterling [7.50 %] - Boil 10.0 min        Hop           9        4.7 IBUs      
0.50 oz               Glacier [5.60 %] - Boil 8.0 min          Hop           10       2.9 IBUs      
0.50 oz               Willamette [5.50 %] - Boil 2.0 min       Hop           11       0.8 IBUs      
1.0 pkg               California Ale (White Labs #WLP001) [35. Yeast         12       -             


Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Light Body, No Mash Out
Total Grain Weight: 8.75 lb
----------------------------
Name              Description                             Step Temperat Step Time     
Mash In           Add 1.42 gal of water at 163.2 F        150.0 F       75 min
This is just trying to get the ingredients into a form that I would try as a good pale ale. I moved the hops a bit, so that your high alpha Centennial is doing most of the bittering. The Stereling will contribute more aroma the later it is in the boil. The Glacier & Willamette are at the end for aroma, but they are both Fuggle derived strains, so I wonder if you could just use Willamette in total...

I also switched out the WLP051 for WLP001, which attenuates more.. helping to get you to the lower FG you want. It is less fruity, but with so many hops, that is probably a good thing.

Anyways, definitely get rid fo the sugar, and go with more LME ... hops & yeast are up to you, and try it one way, take notes, and make changes on the next batch. I'm sure it will be enjoyable beer!

--LexusChris
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Old 10-21-2012, 07:52 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LexusChris View Post
Being precise is okay... but it can also be overkill too. Remember, it's just beer.

Also, you are always better off making a good beer within your experience level, then going too far afield and coming up with something that nobody wants to drink. (I've done that ... so have many others )

Personally, I really think that chasing calories will only cause you to make bad choices about your beer. You are right that finishing gravity will determine the finish, the crispness. However, 1.005 is very very low. I would try this recipe at OG: 1.055 or so and a FG at 1.012 or so. That should get you a nice crisp ale with good hop character.

You could easily come up with several recipes based upon the ingredients on New Beglium's site, with different calorie counts, and different amounts of grains/hops, etc. .. and they would all be within 10% of each other on taste & enjoyment. My best advices it to: Relax. Don't worry about too many details. Have a homebrew.

That said, I put your ingredients into Beersmith 2.0 and played around with it until I got what I would try for a 1st attempt with a 5-gal partial mash setup. (Without trying to taste a Hoptoberfest and fine tune to match it)

Code:
Style: American Pale Ale
TYPE: Partial Mash

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Boil Size: 6.28 gal
Post Boil Volume: 5.72 gal
Batch Size (fermenter): 5.00 gal   
Bottling Volume: 4.75 gal
Estimated OG: 1.056 SG
Estimated Color: 9.0 SRM
Estimated IBU: 42.0 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 72.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 92.3 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt                   Name                                     Type          #        %/IBU         
1.50 lb               Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM)           Grain         1        17.1 %        
0.75 lb               Wheat Malt, Ger (2.0 SRM)                Grain         2        8.6 %         
0.50 lb               Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L (60.0 SRM)    Grain         3        5.7 %         
0.50 lb               Oats, Flaked (1.0 SRM)                   Grain         4        5.7 %         
0.50 lb               Rye, Flaked (2.0 SRM)                    Grain         5        5.7 %         
5.00 lb               Pale Liquid Extract (8.0 SRM)            Extract       6        57.1 %        
0.75 oz               Centennial [10.00 %] - Boil 60.0 min     Hop           7        26.1 IBUs     
0.50 oz               Cascade [5.50 %] - Boil 30.0 min         Hop           8        7.4 IBUs      
0.50 oz               Sterling [7.50 %] - Boil 10.0 min        Hop           9        4.7 IBUs      
0.50 oz               Glacier [5.60 %] - Boil 8.0 min          Hop           10       2.9 IBUs      
0.50 oz               Willamette [5.50 %] - Boil 2.0 min       Hop           11       0.8 IBUs      
1.0 pkg               California Ale (White Labs #WLP001) [35. Yeast         12       -             


Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Light Body, No Mash Out
Total Grain Weight: 8.75 lb
----------------------------
Name              Description                             Step Temperat Step Time     
Mash In           Add 1.42 gal of water at 163.2 F        150.0 F       75 min
This is just trying to get the ingredients into a form that I would try as a good pale ale. I moved the hops a bit, so that your high alpha Centennial is doing most of the bittering. The Stereling will contribute more aroma the later it is in the boil. The Glacier & Willamette are at the end for aroma, but they are both Fuggle derived strains, so I wonder if you could just use Willamette in total...

I also switched out the WLP051 for WLP001, which attenuates more.. helping to get you to the lower FG you want. It is less fruity, but with so many hops, that is probably a good thing.

Anyways, definitely get rid fo the sugar, and go with more LME ... hops & yeast are up to you, and try it one way, take notes, and make changes on the next batch. I'm sure it will be enjoyable beer!

--LexusChris
Thanks again for the help -- I appreciate you taking the time.

I will more than likely take your advice and just make a recipe with the ingredients that is a bit higher gravity. I am sure it will make a good beer, but it would be nice to figure out how they get such high abv in a low calorie beer that tastes the way it does.

If you have a few moments, would you mind trying to tweak that recipe to match the abv and calories? I am curious to see your take on it.
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Old 10-23-2012, 07:36 PM   #6
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Old 10-29-2012, 05:26 AM   #7
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Default caloric corrundum

Quote:
Originally Posted by shaunvfx View Post
If you have a few moments, would you mind trying to tweak that recipe to match the abv and calories? I am curious to see your take on it.
I just took a few minutes to play with the numbers in Beersmith, and I am coming to the same conclusion as before (and that you have found). The calorie count is not matching the recipe, nor is it likely to match.

Chalk this up to 'marketing' calculations. Who knows what it really is? Also, there are many different ways to calculate calories, just like with IBU's. Final Gravity is also a bit of a guess (calculation). IMHO, the more ABV you have, the higher the calories. If you want a lower calorie beer, just reduce the OG 5 or 10 points, and go for it. However, there is such an exercise as trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. Try scaling a Russian Imperial Stout down to 5% ABV... it just is not *supposed* to be that way.

Brew up your best version of your recipe, take good notes, and taste it every few weeks and note where *you* would like to see it go in the next batch.

Within my daily allotment of 2000 calories, an extra 15-20 calories per beer is not going to make a difference on my waistline.

--LexusChris
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Old 10-29-2012, 04:29 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by LexusChris View Post
I just took a few minutes to play with the numbers in Beersmith, and I am coming to the same conclusion as before (and that you have found). The calorie count is not matching the recipe, nor is it likely to match.

Chalk this up to 'marketing' calculations. Who knows what it really is? Also, there are many different ways to calculate calories, just like with IBU's. Final Gravity is also a bit of a guess (calculation). IMHO, the more ABV you have, the higher the calories. If you want a lower calorie beer, just reduce the OG 5 or 10 points, and go for it. However, there is such an exercise as trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. Try scaling a Russian Imperial Stout down to 5% ABV... it just is not *supposed* to be that way.

Brew up your best version of your recipe, take good notes, and taste it every few weeks and note where *you* would like to see it go in the next batch.

Within my daily allotment of 2000 calories, an extra 15-20 calories per beer is not going to make a difference on my waistline.

--LexusChris
Hey Chris, thanks for looking into it.

As I mentioned not concerned with calories but wanted to replicate the beer.

Here is what I ended up brewing, and I am expecting a call from a brewer at nbb with some info in a week or so to hopefully put an end to this conundrum.

3lbs pale
12oz flaked oats
12oz flaked rye
4lbs pale extract
1lb wheat extract

.75 centennial @ 60
.5 cascade @ 15
.5 glacier @ 15
.5 sterling @ 15

1 oz centennial dry hop 7 day
1 oz willamette dry hop 7 day
California ale V


Based on beer smith the est og is 1.059 my measured og ended up at 1.061 so my efficiency was actually a bit higher than expected.

Getting good airlock activity since sunday night (put in fermenter sat night)

Basically made my own recipe with hoptober as inspiration. Lets see what happens.
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Old 11-04-2012, 12:23 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LexusChris View Post
I just took a few minutes to play with the numbers in Beersmith, and I am coming to the same conclusion as before (and that you have found). The calorie count is not matching the recipe, nor is it likely to match.

Chalk this up to 'marketing' calculations. Who knows what it really is? Also, there are many different ways to calculate calories, just like with IBU's. Final Gravity is also a bit of a guess (calculation). IMHO, the more ABV you have, the higher the calories. If you want a lower calorie beer, just reduce the OG 5 or 10 points, and go for it. However, there is such an exercise as trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. Try scaling a Russian Imperial Stout down to 5% ABV... it just is not *supposed* to be that way.

Brew up your best version of your recipe, take good notes, and taste it every few weeks and note where *you* would like to see it go in the next batch.

Within my daily allotment of 2000 calories, an extra 15-20 calories per beer is not going to make a difference on my waistline.

--LexusChris
any thoughts Chris?
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Old 11-04-2012, 12:26 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by shaunvfx View Post
Hey Chris, thanks for looking into it.

As I mentioned not concerned with calories but wanted to replicate the beer.

Here is what I ended up brewing, and I am expecting a call from a brewer at nbb with some info in a week or so to hopefully put an end to this conundrum.

3lbs pale
12oz flaked oats
12oz flaked rye
4lbs pale extract
1lb wheat extract

.75 centennial @ 60
.5 cascade @ 15
.5 glacier @ 15
.5 sterling @ 15

1 oz centennial dry hop 7 day
1 oz willamette dry hop 7 day
California ale V


Based on beer smith the est og is 1.059 my measured og ended up at 1.061 so my efficiency was actually a bit higher than expected.

Getting good airlock activity since sunday night (put in fermenter sat night)

Basically made my own recipe with hoptober as inspiration. Lets see what happens.
Took a reading at the 5 day point, it was sitting at 1.014 -- expected FG is 1.016 and i think it still has more to go, so my attenuation is doing better than expected as well.

I tasted the sample, and I must say I was expecting it to not taste great.... but it was very balanced and drinkable, can't wait for the final product.
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