The Great Bottle Opener Giveaway

Home Brew Forums > Home Brewing Beer > Recipes/Ingredients > question about using candi sugar

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 02-28-2008, 07:11 PM   #11
Ryanh1801
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Ryanh1801's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Addison,TX
Posts: 2,717
Liked 7 Times on 7 Posts

Default

whats you OG on the beer? Two pounds is a lot of simple sugar, unless its a really big brew. Side note, I would rather use other sources of simple sugar than candi sugar, its just too dang expensive. Sugar in the raw is awesome in Belgium beers.

__________________
Ryanh1801 is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-28-2008, 07:16 PM   #12
RoaringBrewer
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
RoaringBrewer's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Lancaster County, PA
Posts: 1,859
Liked 3 Times on 3 Posts

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryanh1801
whats you OG on the beer? Two pounds is a lot of simple sugar, unless its a really big brew. Side note, I would rather use other sources of simple sugar than candi sugar, its just too dang expensive. Sugar in the raw is awesome in Belgium beers.
Talking to me? If I get what I've got a few batches straight efficiency-wise, right around 1.095-1.097. 15lb grain, 2 lb candi-sugar (so its 11.8% of the fermentables)... 9.5% ABV or so brew... I modeled my tripel recipe after the Stoudt's Tripel brewed here in Adamstown, PA. They don't mention candi-sugar, but I thought what the heck...

Anyway, that tripel is sooo smooth for 10% ABV and they have a lot of good info on their site that makes a 'clone' somewhat possible.

And as I noted, I would make the candi myself. Kind of been looking forward to doing it anyway...

EDIT: FWIW, here's the recipe -

Estimated OG: 1.097 SG
Estimated Color: 8.1 SRM
Estimated IBU: 37.6 IBU

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU
10.50 lb Pale Malt (2 Row) Bel (3.0 SRM) Grain 58.8 %
3.50 lb Wheat Malt, Bel (2.0 SRM) Grain 23.5 %
1.00 lb Munich Malt - 20L (20.0 SRM) Grain 5.9 %
0.50 oz Warrior [15.00%] (60 min) Hops 19.6 IBU
0.50 oz Pearle [8.00%] (60 min) Hops 10.4 IBU
1.00 oz Hallertauer [4.80%] (15 min) Hops 4.5 IBU
1.00 oz Saaz [4.00%] (10 min) Hops 2.1 IBU
2.00 lb Candi Sugar, Clear (0.5 SRM) Sugar 11.8 %
1 Pkgs Abbey Ale (White Labs #WLP530) [Starter or Cake-pitch]
__________________
Roaring Bull Brewing Co.
Est. 2006
http://www.cafepress.com/roaringbull

Currently Consuming (HB): Apfelwein on Tap Troegs Hopback on Tap; Craft Bottles
Fermenting/Conditioning: Up Next: Hop Trio American Wheat, Lake Walk Pale Ale
In Planning Stage: Farmhouse Saison and Something Oaked.

Last edited by RoaringBrewer; 02-28-2008 at 07:20 PM.
RoaringBrewer is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-28-2008, 07:26 PM   #13
mr x
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Mainly Halifax
Posts: 1,589
Liked 3 Times on 3 Posts

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhoobarb
It's all just table sugar. I make my own. The color just depends on how long you 'cook' it. I use this method, however, do not use wax paper! It'll stick to wax paper. Pay the extra few cents at the grocery store and get a roll of parchment paper.
I have used that web info to cook my own, but I found it the times listed there way overcooked my sugar. I use silicon cupcake trays to make pucks out of the sugar. I have also used silicon loaf pans.
__________________

This place really went to hell. Follow the OF standard stout. Bye.

mr x is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-28-2008, 07:30 PM   #14
Rhoobarb
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Rhoobarb's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Woodstock, GA
Posts: 3,573
Liked 17 Times on 12 Posts
Likes Given: 2

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr x
I have used that web info to cook my own, but I found it the times listed there way overcooked my sugar. ...
Yeah, I go with temp and visual.
__________________
Rhoobarb is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-28-2008, 08:17 PM   #15
HP_Lovecraft
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 197
Liked 3 Times on 3 Posts

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by cheezydemon
I have read several places that the Belgians are laughing at us for paying high prices for candy sugar that actually makes no difference.
I've read some places that most Belgian brewers use simple inverted sugar, which is Fructose/Glucose, not Sucrose like the Candi-sugar. (Inverted Sugar doesnt crystalize).

It makes me wonder if it really makes a difference, as both are nearly 100% fermentable. The yeast has to borrow nutrients from the malt in order to ferment the sugar, but maybe it doesnt need as much to ferment glucose, over sucrose? since the sucrose has to be first converted to glucose, then to alcohol/co2.

I've never really noticed a difference. I use inverted just because it seems to at least mimmick the Belgian process. Even if they are laughing at us...

nick
__________________
HP_Lovecraft is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-28-2008, 08:30 PM   #16
RoaringBrewer
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
RoaringBrewer's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Lancaster County, PA
Posts: 1,859
Liked 3 Times on 3 Posts

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by HP_Lovecraft
I've read some places that most Belgian brewers use simple inverted sugar, which is Fructose/Glucose, not Sucrose like the Candi-sugar. (Inverted Sugar doesnt crystalize).

It makes me wonder if it really makes a difference, as both are nearly 100% fermentable. The yeast has to borrow nutrients from the malt in order to ferment the sugar, but maybe it doesnt need as much to ferment glucose, over sucrose? since the sucrose has to be first converted to glucose, then to alcohol/co2.

I've never really noticed a difference. I use inverted just because it seems to at least mimmick the Belgian process. Even if they are laughing at us...

nick
Am I missing something here?

The table sugar you use to make the candi-sugar is sucrose, no? Before the chemical reaction. Then after you add the citric acid and heat (the chemical reaction), the sucrose bonds break, and reform so to speak to create the candi-sugar which is invert... fructose/glucose. No? Above you are saying the candi-sugar is sucrose. It starts as sucrose and becomes the invert you described though... So table sugar is sucrose, candi-sugar is invert, right? Or are you talking about a liquid invert sugar (that doesn't crystallize)... ?

I don't know how much difference it makes other than you are breaking the bonds of the sucrose, creating more easily fermented glucose/fructose, prior to fermentation. Thus you are saving the yeast work from breaking the bonds... Or can yeast not break down the bonds and thus the sucrose is less fermentable?

Isn't that the point of the candi sugar, whether you buy it or make it yourself?

EDIT: To quote the website referenced above:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Franklin State Website
Basically, candi sugar is ordinary white cane/beet sugar (sucrose) that has been modified by an 'inversion' process, producing 'invert sugar'.

You can make your own 'invert sugar' from ordinary table sugar with just a few simple items. Sucrose is made up of two simpler sugars (glucose and fructose) joined together. Yeast must spend time and effort breaking the joining bonds to allow them to get at the simple sugars they need for metabolism. This can be done chemically in an acid environment with heat.
__________________
Roaring Bull Brewing Co.
Est. 2006
http://www.cafepress.com/roaringbull

Currently Consuming (HB): Apfelwein on Tap Troegs Hopback on Tap; Craft Bottles
Fermenting/Conditioning: Up Next: Hop Trio American Wheat, Lake Walk Pale Ale
In Planning Stage: Farmhouse Saison and Something Oaked.

Last edited by RoaringBrewer; 02-28-2008 at 08:33 PM.
RoaringBrewer is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-28-2008, 10:29 PM   #17
Ryanh1801
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Ryanh1801's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Addison,TX
Posts: 2,717
Liked 7 Times on 7 Posts

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RoaringBrewer
Talking to me? I

No to the OP.. But that looks like a nice Trippel recipe you got their!
__________________
Ryanh1801 is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-28-2008, 11:02 PM   #18
adx
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
adx's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Scaggsville, MD
Posts: 933
Liked 8 Times on 4 Posts

Default

I made a 1 lb of my own candi sugar for my Belgian that's in primary right now. I used my fry thermometer and poured it into a sheet pan with a silicone mat. The only mistake I made was not leaving it in the fridge long enough. Other then that it turned out good and only set me back the cost of 1 lb of table sugar.

__________________
adx is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-28-2008, 11:39 PM   #19
batesjer
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 58
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RoaringBrewer
Yeah, I think I am going to attempt to make 2lb. of my own very-light amber (aka near clear) candi sugar for the tripel I'll be brewing in a few weeks.

Sure beats $10-14 for 2lb at the LHBS... and the lighter the color, the less time cooking, so shouldn't even take me that long! w00t
sucrose / table sugar / cane sugar
Sucrose is a disaccharide composed of one molecule of glucose and one of fructose. More precisely, it is dextrose plus dextrorotary fructose. It must be broken apart before the yeasts can use it. When heated in an acidic solution (such as wort) the sugar is inverted to make D-(+)-glucose and D-(-)-fructose. Yeasts will invert the sucrose if it is not already in that form before using by using invertase.

Maybe I'm just confused by the fact that this is the third thread on candi sugar and no one (including myself) seems to understand the classification. The way I understand it is that clear candi sugar is a waste of money to purchase and a waste of time to make ahead of time. Since beet sugar and table sugar is just sucrose, all you need to do is invert the the sugar before feeding it to the yeast. In order to invert sucrose it most be heated in an acidic solution. This can be accomplished by heating sucrose, water, and citric acid or by heating sucrose in the wort itself. So why bother buying or making clear candi sugar? Don't you get the same result by putting any form of sucrose (table sugar, beet sugar) into your wort (an acidic solution) at the beginning of the boil?
__________________
batesjer is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-28-2008, 11:44 PM   #20
adx
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
adx's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Scaggsville, MD
Posts: 933
Liked 8 Times on 4 Posts

Default

You cannot just toss sugar into the boil. The reaction to invert the the sucrose into fructose and glucose does not occur until the soft crack stage (265F - 275F). Since wort is mostly water you're not going to get much above 212F during the boil.

__________________
adx is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Reply


Quick Reply
Message:
Options
Thread Tools


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Candi Sugar Question Ramsbottom_Brewer Beginners Beer Brewing Forum 5 06-18-2009 06:01 PM
Beersmith/Candi Sugar question Joe Camel Recipes/Ingredients 2 06-08-2009 08:37 PM
Candi Sugar vs Candi Syrup pava General Techniques 3 02-26-2009 04:32 PM
Question about Belgian Candi Sugar Bigsnake General Beer Discussion 4 12-08-2008 05:50 PM
Belgian Candi Sugar Timing Question EinGutesBier Recipes/Ingredients 2 04-29-2008 05:50 PM