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Old 05-07-2011, 07:13 AM   #1
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Default Pannepot (Old Fisherman's Ale) Clone Thread

Stemming off of Saq's thread for the Westvleteren12 clone recipe. Here I hope to get thoughts, suggestions, and experiments for making a brew tasting similar if not the same as this wonderful brew.

A lot of the information I am using is from The Mad Fermentationist's recipe found here as well as conversations I have had with him.

Tasting notes, writing as my wife and I drink:

Smell- dark cherry, a slight sharpness from alcohol. Not so much dark fruit as with a Westvleteren 12 but more bright (Westy smells darker as my wife put it). Dark unsweetened cocoa like Mexican chocolate. No noticeable hops.

Taste- Thyme spice gives a savory note, and the orange peel is apparent as well. Have to know what you are looking for to detect it. Still no sign of hops. Not as heavy as a Westy, "less of a meal" as it were. Sweetness is like light molasses (not the standard dark stuff you put on cornbread. What, you don't put it on cornbread? You should try it!).

So, if I were to sum it up; Take a Westvleteren, lighten up the richness and fruit notes, add a hint of spice, up the Cherry and reduce the Plum. Give it a slightly lighter mouth feel.

Notes from talking with Michael (aka TMF):

-His brew finished too dry, would mash at a higher temp

-Spices too pronounced; would either decrease the spices, or with a higher FG the sweetness may help balance the spices.


So, I have taken TMF's recipe and modified it to what I am thinking of doing:


Batch Size (Gal): 5.00
OG: 1.100
FG: 1.025
ABV: 10%
IBU: 25.0
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75 %
Wort Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Grain/Sugar
--------------
10.00 lbs. French Pilsner
2.75 lbs. German Pilsner
2.75 lbs. Belgian Pilsner
1.50 lbs. Dark Candi Syrup
0.50 lbs. Special B
0.50 lbs. Flaked Corn
0.125 lbs. Carafa II
0.125 lbs. Belgian Chocolate Malt

Hops
------
2.00 oz. Willamette (Pellet 4.40% AA) @ 45 min.
1.00 oz. Czech Saaz (Pellet 3.10% AA) @ 15 min.

Spices
--------
3.00 gm Coriander Seed @ 2 min.
5.00 gm Fresh Orange Zest@ 2 min.
1.00 gm Cinnamon @ 2 min.
1.00 gm Thyme @ 2 min.

Yeast
-----
T-58 (used by De Struise)
or
Westmalle yeast (beefier version of T-58) w/ large starter


Mash Schedule
-------------
80 min @ 156F
1qt/lb; 4 gallons approx
5 gallons approx for sparging


Fermentation Schedule
-------------
Pitch at 65F
75° F, 4-5 days. Ramp to temp over a day.
62° F, 2 weeks
50° F, 6 weeks
Bottle/keg, carb
Condition cold for 2 months


Thoughts? Opinions? Input? Let us get this thing going!

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Old 05-07-2011, 07:29 AM   #2
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After listening to some Brew Strong episodes, and the feedback that Kai Troester has given, I'm convinced that it's the difference between the limit of attenuation and actual attenuation, not the absolute final gravity, that affects perceived sweetness.

So, a higher FG may not necessarily be sweeter than a lower FG. This is something I intend to research for myself at some point, though I don't have the time to do so anytime soon.

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Old 05-07-2011, 08:38 AM   #3
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After listening to some Brew Strong episodes, and the feedback that Kai Troester has given, I'm convinced that it's the difference between the limit of attenuation and actual attenuation, not the absolute final gravity, that affects perceived sweetness.

So, a higher FG may not necessarily be sweeter than a lower FG. This is something I intend to research for myself at some point, though I don't have the time to do so anytime soon.
Agreed. I have people claim that my saison is sweet, and it ended at a 1.003, so it is not just the gravity.

That being said, I believe that the unfermented bits will mask other flavors as there is more going on in the beer. Perhaps not the sweetness that is making the spices more subtle, but the fact that they would not be the only thing left to shine.
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Old 05-07-2011, 01:24 PM   #4
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Default Adjuncts

Agree on the FG. Like saq our team is going to start with the Westmalle strain. Here are a couple of thoughts on adjuncts:

Thyme - Since there are many kinds of Thyme, I'd like to suggest using Lemon Thyme in keeping with the Citrus and sweet side of spicing. It has plenty of Thyme flavor but is less acrid than standard English Thyme. It's readily available.

Candi Syrups - We're thinking D-90 would be a better choice than D-180 or D-45 since it has more of a plum palate with some toffee overtones. Much less dark fruit than D-180 and much more fresh fruit than D-45.

Candi Syrup, Inc. will provide D-90 for 5 brewers at shipping charge only, (about $5 for 2 lbs). When Toll_Yottie has the list of 5 we can work out a quick way to get the syrup shipped out.

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Old 05-07-2011, 02:21 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tall_Yotie View Post
Stemming off of Saq's thread for the Westvleteren12 clone recipe. Here I hope to get thoughts, suggestions, and experiments for making a brew tasting similar if not the same as this wonderful brew.

Grain/Sugar
--------------
10.00 lbs. French Pilsner
2.75 lbs. German Pilsner
2.75 lbs. Belgian Pilsner
1.50 lbs. Dark Candi Syrup
0.50 lbs. Special B
0.50 lbs. Flaked Corn
0.125 lbs. Carafa II
0.125 lbs. Belgian Chocolate Malt

Thoughts? Opinions? Input? Let us get this thing going!
Very nice substitutions. I especially liked the Special 'B' over the Mad Ferm's Crystal 120. We've used flaked maize in Hermann Holtrop's Rochefort 8 recipe in the past and we get a "too sticky" palate texture using Flaked Maize. With the Pils we have always considered the Belgian and French too similar to differentiate.

Here's a v. 1.1 suggestion, (and slight simplification) on the fermentables bill:

13.0 lbs. Dingeman's Pilsner
3.00 lbs. German Pilsner
1.50 lbs. D-90 Candi Syrup
0.50 lbs. Special B
0.125 lbs. Carafa II
0.125 lbs. Belgian Chocolate Malt

Nothing written in stone...
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Old 05-07-2011, 03:49 PM   #6
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I have been meaning to make this beer for awhile now... so I am in on this one.
What do you think about adding more Candi Sryup if you take out the Flaked Corn? maybe even corn sugar...

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Old 05-07-2011, 05:41 PM   #7
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SUU;

I suppose the lemon sage would work with the orange zest, I may take my wife to a tea or spice shop and see what works best. She has an amazing nose, so will be able to help with this. Also, will have her sniff test the spice mix to figure if the ration needs to be changed.

For the omitting of the flaked maize, I understand where you are at, and though Pannepot does not have the strong mouth / sticking as Westy or Roch does, I still think it has a little bit of it. Anything with spices I believe needs that hint of sticking/coating; it lets you retain the spice flavor between sips, amplifying the flavor throughout the glass. The Roch8 recipe you mentioned I have aging away (at about 5-6 months now) and it is a little stickier than I would want for Pannepot.

12.75 lbs. Dingeman's Pilsner (or mix there of)
3.00 lbs. German Pilsner
1.50 lbs. D-90 Candi Syrup
0.50 lbs. Special B
0.25 lbs. Flaked Maize
0.125 lbs. Carafa II
0.125 lbs. Belgian Chocolate Malt

Cutting the Maize down in half to get a hint of it. Also, they actually use it in the brew, so want to keep a bit of the tradition there. For the Pilsner at my LHBS the barrels are German and Belgian, so I am going to do a mix of those two to get the poundage required.

Hell, I might go to the organic shop. Is your syrup Certified Organic? If not that is cool, just checking.

KappaJoe,

Could do that but I prefer to substitute grain for grain. Not a fan of adding sugar to substitute grain, though some styles do gain from it.

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Old 05-07-2011, 08:14 PM   #8
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SUU;

I suppose the lemon sage would work with the orange zest, I may take my wife to a tea or spice shop and see what works best. She has an amazing nose, so will be able to help with this. Also, will have her sniff test the spice mix to figure if the ration needs to be changed.

For the omitting of the flaked maize, I understand where you are at, and though Pannepot does not have the strong mouth / sticking as Westy or Roch does, I still think it has a little bit of it. Anything with spices I believe needs that hint of sticking/coating; it lets you retain the spice flavor between sips, amplifying the flavor throughout the glass. The Roch8 recipe you mentioned I have aging away (at about 5-6 months now) and it is a little stickier than I would want for Pannepot.

12.75 lbs. Dingeman's Pilsner (or mix there of)
3.00 lbs. German Pilsner
1.50 lbs. D-90 Candi Syrup
0.50 lbs. Special B
0.25 lbs. Flaked Maize
0.125 lbs. Carafa II
0.125 lbs. Belgian Chocolate Malt

Cutting the Maize down in half to get a hint of it. Also, they actually use it in the brew, so want to keep a bit of the tradition there. For the Pilsner at my LHBS the barrels are German and Belgian, so I am going to do a mix of those two to get the poundage required.

Hell, I might go to the organic shop. Is your syrup Certified Organic? If not that is cool, just checking.

KappaJoe,

Could do that but I prefer to substitute grain for grain. Not a fan of adding sugar to substitute grain, though some styles do gain from it.
Tall, it's great having an olfactory expert on board that's a fan of the brew also! Our Date sugar is not certified organic, (or Kosher), so we can't use the terminology. The beet sugar is 100% organic, (and certified kosher), so from a non-FDA perspective we're 90% organic. BTW, my wife hates "beer" per se but she absolutely loves the Westy 12 clone. I'm hoping she'll become of fan of the Pannepot OFA Quad also. Looking forward to the opinion on the blended spices.

The recipe looks like it is shaping up with some great ideas. Our team here is really looking forward to this recipe.

OT: Yours, saq, gio's, and about 20 others shipment of D-180 is going out on Monday. Should take 3-4 days.
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Old 05-07-2011, 09:16 PM   #9
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Tall, it's great having an olfactory expert on board that's a fan of the brew also! Our Date sugar is not certified organic, (or Kosher), so we can't use the terminology. The beet sugar is 100% organic, (and certified kosher), so from a non-FDA perspective we're 90% organic. BTW, my wife hates "beer" per se but she absolutely loves the Westy 12 clone. I'm hoping she'll become of fan of the Pannepot OFA Quad also. Looking forward to the opinion on the blended spices.

The recipe looks like it is shaping up with some great ideas. Our team here is really looking forward to this recipe.

OT: Yours, saq, gio's, and about 20 others shipment of D-180 is going out on Monday. Should take 3-4 days.
Luckily my wife is a lover of beer, and tends to like the dark roasted malty brews as well as the Belgian styles, with Pannepot and Westy12 a toss-up as her favorite. As we only have room for 1 carboy in our fridge for temp control we are trying to determine which clone to attempt first. Just bottled up a batch of Saq's New World this morning, yielded 54 bottles!

We might just go for the Pannepot clone first, and perhaps mail you (SUU) a couple bottles when all is said and done to get notes.
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Old 05-07-2011, 09:55 PM   #10
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Luckily my wife is a lover of beer, and tends to like the dark roasted malty brews as well as the Belgian styles, with Pannepot and Westy12 a toss-up as her favorite. As we only have room for 1 carboy in our fridge for temp control we are trying to determine which clone to attempt first. Just bottled up a batch of Saq's New World this morning, yielded 54 bottles!

We might just go for the Pannepot clone first, and perhaps mail you (SUU) a couple bottles when all is said and done to get notes.
Sounds good. On a follow-up we can return the favor a few week later. Our corporate address is out on the site under "Contact" but our admin is a Belgian Ale lover and if she detects a beer shipment the box might be shy a bottle when I get it

If you need D-90 early let me know. We have plenty of stock now.
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