No clue what I'm doing Irish Red

Alright, I've been chatting with a friend about an Irish Red and we modified his reasonably successful red from the spring and came up with:

Red Sun - Irish Red

BJCP Style and Style Guidelines
-------------------------------

11-A English & Scottish Strong Ale, Old Ale

Min OG: 1.060 Max OG: 1.090
Min IBU: 30 Max IBU: 60
Min Clr: 10 Max Clr: 25 Color in SRM, Lovibond

Recipe Specifics
----------------

Batch Size (Gal): 5.00 Wort Size (Gal): 5.00
Total Grain (Lbs): 13.45
Anticipated OG: 1.070 Plato: 17.11
Anticipated SRM: 18.3
Anticipated IBU: 37.4
Brewhouse Efficiency: 70 %
Wort Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Pre-Boil Amounts
----------------

Evaporation Rate: 15.00 Percent Per Hour
Pre-Boil Wort Size: 6.45 Gal
Pre-Boil Gravity: 1.054 SG 13.44 Plato

Grain/Extract/Sugar

% Amount Name Origin Potential SRM
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
74.3 10.00 lbs. Pale Malt(2-row) Great Britain 1.038 3
7.4 1.00 lbs. Flaked Oats America 1.033 2
5.6 0.75 lbs. Flaked Corn (Maize) America 1.040 1
3.7 0.50 lbs. Biscuit Malt Belgium 1.035 24
3.7 0.50 lbs. Crystal 40L America 1.034 40
3.7 0.50 lbs. Weyermann Melanoidin Malt Germany 1.037 27
1.5 0.20 lbs. Roasted Barley Great Britain 1.029 575

Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.


Hops

Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
0.75 oz. Perle Pellet 8.05 27.0 60 min.
1.00 oz. Hallertauer Pellet 5.30 6.3 15 min.
0.50 oz. Liberty Whole 4.00 2.2 15 min.
0.50 oz. Goldings - B.C. Whole 4.75 1.9 10 min.


Yeast
-----

WYeast 1084 Irish Ale

I'm thinking single infusion 152 for 65 min? Maybe decoct, but I have little experience in the saccharification stage. Batch sparge, etc. Love to know how far off base we are. Hope the LHBS has it all. Thanks

-RS

Why the oats and corn? Neither is really common for the style. Oats will make it a little thicker, corn will offset that. Melanoidin's a nice touch, you could also use a little Munich for malty goodness, as well. I wouldn't bother with a decoction on this batch, especially if you're using melanoin malt (most of what a decoction does is create the melanoidens that you're adding through the grain bill).

Not sure about the hops. 152° sounds about right for the mash, kind of a medium body.

I agree, I'd drop the corn and add some munich malt, it would work really well in that style. I don't know if I'd use the Perle hops for bittering, they're a little citrusy, but give it a go, it looks like a good recipe. 152 is probably a good temp, but I wouldn't drop too far below it, maybe a couple degrees higher to give it some good body and residual dextrins.

Definitely drop the corn and oats, neither are appropriate for the style.

As for the hops drop the perle and hallertau (personally I would drop the liberty too) as again neither are appropriate. Replace with Target, Fuggles, WGV, or EKG. I typically bitter my Irish Reds with Target and then use EKG for flavor and aroma.

Also, I think you may have selected the wrong style guidelines, Irish Red should have a max OG of 1.060 and a max IBU of 28 or 30. Since it looks like you are using ProMash I would suggest using the Scottish and Irish Ale_Irish Red Ale style choice.

I really appreciate the feedback fellas and I think we're going to do just that, drop the corn/oats. I think we went overboard trying for something complex, but as we all know, complex doesn't always = good. Target, Fuggles, EKG, those I know. The Perle/Liberty were a suggestion from the LHBS clerk interestingly. Are my IBUs in line for the style at least? 38-55?

-RS

That's pretty hoppy for an Irish Red. I don't have my software in front of me, but I suspect you want somewhere in the 20-30 range. Irish Reds aren't terribly bitter beers.

Now, that doesn't mean that you can't make a hoppy red ale and enjoy it, it's just not going to be an Irisj Red. If you want to go REALLY hoppy, into IPA territory, with a red ale, take a look at my "Murder In The Red Barn" recipe. But, that's a completely different animal.

The hardest thing to learn in homebrewing, I think, is when to make things simple. Some of the best beers in the world are the simplest. Guiness is basically base malt, flaked barley, roasted barley, and a bittering hop addition. Traditional hefeweizens are wheat malt, pils malt, and a bittering hop addition. Sometimes, you WANT to have something really complex (you should see the Russian Imperial Stout that Dude and I put together), but for something like an Irish Red, I think less is more. Base malt, Munich/melanoidin, maybe the biscuit, some crystal (not too much), a little roast barley for color, and some EKG.

Save the oats for an oatmeal stout (on the docket for the morning for me).

RedSun said:

Are my IBUs in line for the style at least? 38-55?

-RS

Click to expand...

Nope, as I mentioned earlier, I think you chose the wrong style guidelines (should be for Irish Red Ale, not Strong Ale).

Correct guidelines should be 1.044-1.060 OG, 17-28 IBU and 9-18 SRM.

Also, as Bird mentions, simpler can often be better; this is especially true with any ale style from the British Isles be it England, Scotland, Ireland, or Wales.

I'm thinking, too, that if you're using the melanoidin and/or Munich, you may not need that much roasted barley. Maybe just an ounce or two, maybe none at all. Run the recipe through Promash and see, you want to use pretty much the smallest amount you can get away with to meet your color requirements, so that you don't introduce any roasted character to the beer. I've used debittered black malt for color purposes, you could also use a couple ounces of a dehusked Carafe.

the_bird said:

I'm thinking, too, that if you're using the melanoidin and/or Munich, you may not need that much roasted barley. Maybe just an ounce or two, maybe none at all. Run the recipe through Promash and see, you want to use pretty much the smallest amount you can get away with to meet your color requirements, so that you don't introduce any roasted character to the beer. I've used debittered black malt for color purposes, you could also use a couple ounces of a dehusked Carafe.

Click to expand...

Good call Bird, definitely doesn't need more than two ounces which will be just enough to get the color character right.

TheJadedDog said:

Well, it's gonna need some roasted barley or it's not gonna be red but a quarter pound is a bit much, I'd maybe lower it to just a few ounces.

Click to expand...

It's just for color, and Irish Reds don't typically have melanoidin malt in them (although I think it's a great choice). The melanoidin adds a lot of red color on its own. Either way, just double-check your recipe with Promash and don't use more than you need to.

I think it's all starting to make more sense now, love coming here. I'll work up some changes this evening, drop the IBUs into the 20s (more my style anyway), adjust the roasted barley as well, see what ProMash puts out. Is a 60 min boil enough or should we bump that? I've never done more than 60s so far.

-RS

It's rare that you need to boil more than 60 minutes. The only times I do are when I'm using a lot of Pils malt (a 90 minute boil drives off a lot of the stuff that can cause DMS), or if I'm doing a huge beer, collect a lot more wort than I usually would, and need to boil it down.

I was recently listening to a Jamil Shop podcast about American Amber Ale which in the west coast variety is often a red ale. The recipe from the show was a clone of a beer called Red Rocket. This was described as a big malty, sweet and hoppy beer. Maybe you were trying to go more this route than the malty low hoppiness Irish Red ale?
http://beerdujour.com/Recipes/Jamil/JamilsAmericanAmberAleExtract.htm
Craig

Any more on the right path?

Recipe Specifics
----------------

Batch Size (Gal): 5.00 Wort Size (Gal): 5.00
Total Grain (Lbs): 11.65
Anticipated OG: 1.061 Plato: 15.01
Anticipated SRM: 16.3
Anticipated IBU: 25.9
Brewhouse Efficiency: 70 %
Wort Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Pre-Boil Amounts
----------------

Evaporation Rate: 15.00 Percent Per Hour
Pre-Boil Wort Size: 5.88 Gal
Pre-Boil Gravity: 1.052 SG 12.86 Plato

Grain/Extract/Sugar

% Amount Name Origin Potential SRM
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
81.5 9.50 lbs. Pale Malt(2-row) Great Britain 1.038 3
4.3 0.50 lbs. Munich Malt Great Britain 1.037 6
4.3 0.50 lbs. Biscuit Malt Belgium 1.035 24
4.3 0.50 lbs. Crystal 40L America 1.034 40
4.3 0.50 lbs. Weyermann Melanoidin Malt Germany 1.037 27
1.3 0.15 lbs. Roasted Barley Great Britain 1.029 575

Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.


Hops

Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
0.50 oz. Wye Target Pellet 10.27 22.4 50 min.
0.75 oz. Fuggle Pellet 5.00 3.5 10 min.


Yeast
-----

WYeast 1084 Irish Ale


ProMash gives an SRM of 16.3 and IBU of 25.9 Initial infusion of 13.24qt

I may go White Labs yeast since the LHBS goes with that brand.

i'm working on an irish red myself. i'm putting some crystal 120 in for some more red color...just a thought.

If you're trying to stick to style guidelines find 3 Irish Red recipes and mock them with some changes....

Me i like to tweak around with things.

I did an Irish Red with 1lb Oats and 1lb Barley (both flaked of course). Never hurts to experiment...

That recipe looks pretty good. I like it!

Looks good to me.

Sweet, I can't wait to try it out! Again, thanks for the help. God only knows what I might be brewing otherwise...

-RS