A nice crisp Hoppy Red

pbowler · 09-27-2006, 11:30 PM

So here's the deal, SWMBO and I took the kids to an indoor waterpark in Frankenmouth (Michiganders know what I'm talking about) which is a super Touresty though real German area of Michigan (formerly UberCheesy, but surprisingly getting better thanks to $100's of millions in investment).
The Indoor waterpark/Hotel is owned by an old entity called Zhenders which is a german Family company there.
at said park they had a Beer on tap called Vienna Red. HOLY SMACK this was some good stuff. I mean REAAAAALY good. it was SUUUUPER Crisp and so hoppy that it almost took my breath away the first time I tried it, I was expecting a Killiansesque mellow red.

SO, my question is this.
If it was a Real Vienna Red then (according to Promash) it was a Lager and the IBU's are 18-30, not exactly stunning Hoppiness.

Now, if it was really an American Amber it's an Ale with the IBU's 20-40, BUT this bad boy was light and crisp. I suppose it was fairly IPAish now that I think about it.
I suppose I could use the American Red style and moce the IBU's closer to 50, but I'm not sure how crisp it will be.

DAMN I wish there had been someone behind the tap other than the clueless kid who probably spend his Saturday nights swilling warm Natty Light while this incredible brew is at his fingertips all day.

any thoughts?

**david_42** · 09-28-2006, 02:10 AM

I wonder if it was a low IBU Lager with extra flavor & aroma hops? German beers tend to be Lagers and I don't associate "light & crisp" with 50 IBU ales. I had a Pilsner last month, only 40 IBU, but dry hopped with Saaz. First sip, I thought there was some Cascades in it!

pbowler · 09-28-2006, 03:45 AM

OK, we might be on to something here.

it seemed REALLY clean, like a Sam Adams, only tighter, brighter.
I know Sam Adams is a boston Lager, but that's one heavy Lager, this was like really clean, maybe it was a super aromated lager.

I've been looking for an excuse make an Ice Box Fermentation area, this may be my excuse

damn it was good.

If they're following the whole German tradition thing I would assume it to be a Vienna Lager, I suppose I should go with that Idea and see what happens.
Recipe Idea to come in the AM

any suggestions on Reddeners? Crystal?

**Dude** · 09-28-2006, 09:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pbowler

OK, we might be on to something here.

it seemed REALLY clean, like a Sam Adams, only tighter, brighter.
I know Sam Adams is a boston Lager, but that's one heavy Lager, this was like really clean, maybe it was a super aromated lager.

I've been looking for an excuse make an Ice Box Fermentation area, this may be my excuse

damn it was good.

If they're following the whole German tradition thing I would assume it to be a Vienna Lager, I suppose I should go with that Idea and see what happens.
Recipe Idea to come in the AM

any suggestions on Reddeners? Crystal?

You can use a tiny bit of black patent to get a red hue. You won't notice the taste at all. It will also help clear the beer.

pbowler · 09-28-2006, 11:47 AM

ok,
so we're going with Vienna Lager here then.
I'll look around, but anyone know of any "classic" characteristics? (i.e. Saaz hops in a Pilsner)

sonvolt · 09-28-2006, 11:50 AM

If you read teh BJCP carefully, it says that Irish Reds can sometimes be lagered. I suspect that the beer you drank was close to (but I am guessing superior to) Leinenkugel's Red. It is crisp and refreshing - and it is a Red Lager.

pbowler · 09-28-2006, 11:55 AM

If they were being true to the heritage of the area (which is REALLY Kitchey) then it would have been German, so that is what makes me think Vienna Lager.

I agree it did not taste like an Ale, but the IBU's seemed too low in the Vienna Lager Guidelines.

I will try to make them near the top, then Dry hop like mad

pbowler · 09-29-2006, 12:41 AM

OK, change of plans.
I think i'm gonna go with an Ale so I can reuse the yeast from the Stout.

I will try to make a Crisp (if I can) hoppy red ale.

I'm thinking though like David_42 mentions, that I will Dry hop it a lot.

Lagering can wait one more brew...

texasgeorge · 09-29-2006, 04:20 AM

Dry hopping will give that flavor you're looking for and still maintain the IBUs of the style.

As far as reddeners, you can substitute some or all of any 60L in the recipe with 120L. With my Red (which is admittedly roasty, which is what I was going for), I used 1Lb of 60L, 1/2Lb of 120L, and 2 oz of 500L Roasted Barley in a partial mash with 2Lbs of 2-row pale, and 5Lb pale extract. I wanted to use 300L Roasted Barley, but couldn't get my hands on any in time... For a good red color but less of the roasty, try cutting back to 1/2 to 1 oz of the barley.

pbowler · 09-29-2006, 12:10 PM

Ok cool,
what was your Hop schedule?

it's amazing how much "flavor" dry hopping adds considering it doesn't actually add any flavor