New Pale Ale recipe - critique requested

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TwoHeadsBrewing

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I pretty regularly have Edwort's Haus Ale, and BM's Centennial Blonde Ale on tap but I wanted to brew up a Pale Ale with a bit more flavor and bitterness. Below is my recipe as of right now, but I'm looking for a critique. Let me know what you think. Many thanks!

-- 1056 Pale Ale (11 gallon batch - 80% efficiency) --

Grain Bill:
18.00 lb Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 83.72 %
1.50 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L (60.0 SRM) Grain 6.98 %
0.25 lb Roasted Barley (300.0 SRM) Grain 1.15 %
1.00 lb Cara-Pils/Dextrine (2.0 SRM) Grain 4.65 %
1.00 lb White Wheat Malt (2.4 SRM) Grain 4.65 %

Hops:
1.00 oz Cascade [6.00 %] (60 min) (First Wort Hop) Hops 10.3 IBU
1.00 oz Cascade [6.00 %] (60 min) Hops 9.4 IBU
2.00 oz Centennial [10.00 %] (15 min) Hops 15.7 IBU
2.00 oz Centennial [10.00 %] (5 min) Hops 6.3 IBU

Yeast and Misc:
2 Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 15.0 min) Misc
(Carboy #1) - 1 Pkgs American Ale (Wyeast Labs #1056) Yeast-Ale
(Carboy #2) - 2 Pkgs Nottingham (Danstar #-)

Mash:
Mash for 60 minutes @ 154F
Mash out @ 180F
Fly sparge to collect 12.8 gallons

Beer Stats:
OG: 1.056
FG: 1.013
IBU: 41.5
SRM: 11.1 (gold/copper)
ABV: 5.6%

Fermenation and Kegging:
3 weeks @ 68F
Keg and Force carbonate @ 12psi for 2.6 vols of CO2
Carb and Condition for 2 weeks @ 37F
 
You are definitely going to want to increase the bitterness here. It's a good idea to calculate FWH as though it were a 20 minute addition for it's bitterness level. Off the top of my head that is in the neighborhood of 12 IBU. That's low 30s overall in the beer giving you an IBU:SG ratio around .6. If you want it really bitter this number should be around .9 and some guys would say even higher. The first wort additions do achieve the IBUs your program indicated but they are percieved differently for some reason. I'd throw another ounce of cascade in at the start of the boil. Just my opinion.
 
I don't care to have it really bitter, but just bitter enough. I think Ed's Haus pale is around 30 IBU, so I'd really like to shoot for a bit higher at 40-45 which is the upper range for the style.
 
interesting choice on the roasted barley.. I'm guessing it doesn't really add much flavor at that amount, just color? I think I'd probably instead go with some victory or biscuit or something like that. (or more crystal, and then mash lower to compensate for the FG)
 
Don't know if the information has changed in the last few years, but that mash out temp looks very high to me. From what I recall, the mash out temp should be around 168. Sparge water not over 170. Above this you risk heavy astringency as the tannins and such can be more heavily extracted from the husk material. No time to look this up at the moment, but maybe read up on this. If someone has contrary information, please post it.
 
interesting choice on the roasted barley.. I'm guessing it doesn't really add much flavor at that amount, just color? I think I'd probably instead go with some victory or biscuit or something like that. (or more crystal, and then mash lower to compensate for the FG)

Yes, I added that just for a reddish/copper color. I don't expect to taste it at all. I almost added some biscuit in there, but I'd have to add about a pound for the same color. I was going to use 120L, but didn't have any on hand.
 
This is about sparging, but the temp is worth noting:

How to Brew - By John Palmer - Getting the Wort Out (Lautering)

The temperature of the sparge water is important. The water should be no more than 170°F, as husk tannins become more soluble above this temperature, depending on wort pH. This could lead to astringency in the beer.

and

What is Mashout?

Before the sweet wort is drained from the mash and the grain is rinsed (sparged) of the residual sugars, many brewers perform a mashout. Mashout is the term for raising the temperature of the mash to 170°F prior to lautering. This step stops all of the enzyme action (preserving your fermentable sugar profile) and makes the grainbed and wort more fluid. For most mashes with a ratio of 1.5-2 quarts of water per pound of grain, the mashout is not needed. The grainbed will be loose enough to flow well. For a thicker mash, or a mash composed of more than 25% of wheat or oats, a mashout may be needed to prevent a Set Mash/Stuck Sparge. This is when the grain bed plugs up and no liquid will flow through it. A mashout helps prevent this by making the sugars more fluid; like the difference between warm and cold honey. The mashout step can be done using external heat or by adding hot water according to the multi-rest infusion calculations. (See chapter 16.) A lot of homebrewers tend to skip the mashout step for most mashes with no consequences.

Hope this helps.
 
I think you misunderstood:

Mash temp is 154F for 60 minutes, mashout WATER is 180F which will just barely bring the mash temp up to 170F, if that. I don't plan to raise the temp of the grain to 180F.
 
Yeah, I would add another oz of cascade at the 60mins to get the IBUs more in range. I am assuming the wheat is for better head retention (like the Carapils)? Why not use all carapils?

Are you going to blend your two carboys with different yeast after fermentation, or are you just experimenting with the different strains for different flavors? I think it would be cool to try the Wyeast 1056 beside a Safeale US-05!
 
I plan to use C120 for color in mine, roasted barley works too... I love the copper color in a pale ale!

I'd drop an ounce of the cascade in at 60 and FWH with the other half but that is my preference. It'll be quite good either way, I'm sure.

Wouldn't hurt to sneak a wee bit of cascade in each fermenter for dry hop if you have some leaf on hand. I used an ounce to dry hop my last pale ale and thought it was too much, so emphasis on 'wee bit'.. ;)
 
Yeah, I would add another oz of cascade at the 60mins to get the IBUs more in range. I am assuming the wheat is for better head retention (like the Carapils)? Why not use all carapils?

Are you going to blend your two carboys with different yeast after fermentation, or are you just experimenting with the different strains for different flavors? I think it would be cool to try the Wyeast 1056 beside a Safeale US-05!

I just like to experiment and figure out what I like the best. I like Nottingham because it flocculates well and produces a very clean, crisp taste. I did a side by side with Ed's Haus Ale with US-05 and Nottingham, and the Nottingham was better, hands down. So, this time I figured I'd do a 1056 & Nottingham test and see which one comes out better. In addition, I wanted to wash the 1056 and store it for later use.
 
I plan to use C120 for color in mine, roasted barley works too... I love the copper color in a pale ale!

I'd drop an ounce of the cascade in at 60 and FWH with the other half but that is my preference. It'll be quite good either way, I'm sure.

Wouldn't hurt to sneak a wee bit of cascade in each fermenter for dry hop if you have some leaf on hand. I used an ounce to dry hop my last pale ale and thought it was too much, so emphasis on 'wee bit'.. ;)

That sounds good, I'll update the recipe to include 1oz FWH, and 1oz 60min in the boil. I'm not sure about the dry hopping, although I may throw an ounce in one keg just for kicks. I'm hoping for a beer that sits somewhere between Sierra Nevada Pale Ale and Edworts Haus Ale.
 
I just like to experiment and figure out what I like the best. I like Nottingham because it flocculates well and produces a very clean, crisp taste. I did a side by side with Ed's Haus Ale with US-05 and Nottingham, and the Nottingham was better, hands down. So, this time I figured I'd do a 1056 & Nottingham test and see which one comes out better. In addition, I wanted to wash the 1056 and store it for later use.

You should get identical results as last time because US-05 and Wyeast 1056 are the same strain of yeast. At least you'll get a measure of reliability.
 
interesting choice on the roasted barley.. I'm guessing it doesn't really add much flavor at that amount, just color? I think I'd probably instead go with some victory or biscuit or something like that. (or more crystal, and then mash lower to compensate for the FG)

+1 on the biscuit. I can't get enough beers with biscuit malt in them. I'd also drop the carapils and white wheat in favor of flaked barley. You'll get much better foam stability out of the flaked barley. There have been some very good threads here on Carapils vs. flaked barley and anytime someone actually does a side-by-side flaked barley hammers Carapils. Mash temp looks great to me by the way. I love a little extra dextrin and mouthfeel in my pale ales.
 
+1 on the biscuit. I can't get enough beers with biscuit malt in them. I'd also drop the carapils and white wheat in favor of flaked barley. You'll get much better foam stability out of the flaked barley. There have been some very good threads here on Carapils vs. flaked barley and anytime someone actually does a side-by-side flaked barley hammers Carapils. Mash temp looks great to me by the way. I love a little extra dextrin and mouthfeel in my pale ales.

I may give that biscuit a go, haven't had it before in any beers. As for the flaked barley, I'm not really so concerned about head retention as body, which is what the wheat is for. I've found it gives an added layer of complexity and has a nice malty aroma.
 
I used biscuit in a pale ale once with amarillo and cascades... I thought it was a disaster, the hop flavor clashed horribly with the malt. But that is just my opinion and experience, take it with a grain. ;) On the other hand, I feel that biscuit type malt works great in an IPA where there is (a lot) more bitterness to offset the crackery malt character.

If you are looking for something along the lines of Sierra Nevada I would stick with all crystal, biscuit or victory or honey malt will make it more like Mighty Arrow.
 
I used biscuit in a pale ale once with amarillo and cascades... I thought it was a disaster, the hop flavor clashed horribly with the malt.

And I tend to pair biscuit with earthy spicy hop profiles like fuggle. Interesting, I'll have to do a pale ale with a nice dose Cascade and biscuit (two of my dearest loves) and see if they get along well. I can imagine that citrus and cracker wouldn't work too well together but then again it is all about relative intensity and what else is in there too...
 
Thanks for the input. For now I think I'll keep the biscuit out, since I'm changing so many other things in this recipe. After I nail down this new recipe, I may tweak it a bit with some honey malt or biscuit.
 
One thing no one has mentioned is that you plan on using 2 pkgs of Nottingham in the second carboy. You really only need one. Notty can totally handle 5 gal of 1.056 wort no problem-o.
 
One thing no one has mentioned is that you plan on using 2 pkgs of Nottingham in the second carboy. You really only need one. Notty can totally handle 5 gal of 1.056 wort no problem-o.

Yep, i was wondering when someone would comment on that. I was planning to overpitch just a bit to see what happens. I've heard one package is good for up to 5g of 1.045, so 5.5g @ 1.056 could use some extra help right??
 
Personally, I think that's overpithcing a lot. One pkg is just fine for 5 @ 1.056. If you want to slightly overpitch, I'd say go for 1.5 pkgs. But that's just me.
 
Personally, I think that's overpithcing a lot. One pkg is just fine for 5 @ 1.056. If you want to slightly overpitch, I'd say go for 1.5 pkgs. But that's just me.

Do you know what the advised pitching rate actually is? I can't seem to find the recommended gravity anywhere.
 
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