NB Le Terroir

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BrewSkies

BrewSkies

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Anybody out there tried it? Picked up a 22oz bottle from the local craft brew shop and fell in love with it, and have started tossing around ideas to make a similar brew.

From New Belgium:
Le Terroir is a french term meaning “of the earth”. Used to reference the environmental conditions that affect the brew, we like to think about the terroir of our foeders. These wooden barrels age our sour beer in varying temperatures, humidity, and vibrations. The terroir of New Belgium, so to speak. Add in another variable by dry-hopping with peachy, mango-like Amarillo hops, and we created a beer that changes every time we brew it.

ABV - 7.5%
Calories - 200
Hops - Target
Malts - Pale, Wheat, Caramel-80, Carapils, Oats
OG - 16.5

Rough initial hack for a recipe: Basically make an American Pale and use Roselare blend.

5 Gallon Batch:
7# 2-row
3# wheat
1# oats
(normally wouldn't use the wheat and oats in an APA, but since NB said they use it, I included them)
Crystal 80 - .5#
1oz Target @ 60 min
Wyeast Roselare blend
A few weeks in the primary, and then months in the secondary
1/2 oz each Amarillo and Cascade dry hop a week prior to bottling

Okay, questions I have:
-I know a lot of bugs are sensitive to higher ABV and hop content. At what level will bittering hops prevent the bugs from working their magic?
-My only sour beer experience is using Roselare, so that's why I went with it- can anyone think of any other products that may be better suited for this beer?

I think a few more bottles may be warranted for further research...

Thanks in advance!
 
Lacto is inhibited ~8 IBUs, but the blend has Pedio so no worries there (if you keep it under ~8% ABV). What you do want to worry about is too much bitterness just not tasting good in combination with the sourness. It is rare to have a sour beer over 20 IBUs, and I'm not sure I've ever heard of one over 40.

Roeselare is great, but it can be a bit wimpy. How sour do you want the beer to be? Dregs from sour beers are a great addtion, sadly all the Lips of Faith bombers are flash pasteurized. Some extra primary yeast isn't a bad idea either, especially if you are aiming for a gravity above 1.050 (of if your yeast pack isn't super fresh).

I made a great dry hopped Flanders Red with American hops. I'd suggest only dry hopping a portion of your batch, that way you don't have to drink 5 gallons of long aged sour beer in a few weeks before the hops get all oxidized.
 
Bumping this.

I'm looking to get a Le Terroir clone in soon. Not looking to clone this beer exactly, but the key is that I'm looking for a pale, not too dry, sour beer. Kind of like a tamed tripel, without the spice and with the sour.

I don't have access in my area to really any sour beers other than Duchess De Burgogne, so it would be tough to pitch dregs.

What commercial yeast would make sense here? Would Wyeast 3278 Belgian Lambic be fine, or would that dry the beer out too much?

Would I want to rack the beer off the yeast cake after a certain period of time?
 
Lambic blend would certainly be a reasonable choice. Mashing hot and adding some crystal will help to hold onto some sweetness, but the Brett will dry it out a lot. You could go with straight Lacto along with ale yeast, just keep the IBUs close to 0 (this will be much faster as well). Racking is up to you, if there is Brett it will get nutrients from the dead Saccharomyces and produce a more rustic/funky character.

Hope that helps, good luck.
 
I'd love to hear about the results of your recipe if you've tried brewing it. I love Le Terroir and really want to brew something similar - particularly since I can't find any on shelf in Chicago anymore.
 
Antiteam: I'm brewing this next weekend. Check back in a year and I'll let you know the result. ;-)
 
I'm brewing this one right now. Even if it's not an exact clone, it'll probably be good!
 
Quick update on this. Brewed on 8/6/11. Let sit for a year on the bugs then dry hopped and bottled. This is one of my favorite beers I've ever brewed. Going to brew it again soon.

BrewSkies: In your original post you listed carapils, but don't see it in the list of grains with weights. Do you recall how much you used? I don't think I included any when I brewed mine but considering adding some next time. Also, did you use flaked or malted wheat and oats?
 
antiteam said:
Quick update on this. Brewed on 8/6/11. Let sit for a year on the bugs then dry hopped and bottled. This is one of my favorite beers I've ever brewed. Going to brew it again soon.

BrewSkies: In your original post you listed carapils, but don't see it in the list of grains with weights. Do you recall how much you used? I don't think I included any when I brewed mine but considering adding some next time. Also, did you use flaked or malted wheat and oats?
Click to expand...

Did you go with lambic or roselare blend?
 
antiteam said:
Quick update on this. Brewed on 8/6/11. Let sit for a year on the bugs then dry hopped and bottled. This is one of my favorite beers I've ever brewed. Going to brew it again soon.

BrewSkies: In your original post you listed carapils, but don't see it in the list of grains with weights. Do you recall how much you used? I don't think I included any when I brewed mine but considering adding some next time. Also, did you use flaked or malted wheat and oats?
Click to expand...

Actually never got to brew this one, I deployed and then kind of forgot about it. I'm really happy somebody tried out the recipe, and glad it was a hit! I may have to give it a try in the near future...
 
You definitely should try it out! Just brewed it again last weekend. Hoping to be enjoying this batch a bit sooner than a year from now.
 
Ok. I'm drinking my first bottle of Le Terroir right now. As soon as I smelled it, I knew it was going to be good. Now, here I am - looking for a clone recipe.

Antiteam - Did you brew this exactly as posted? Did you make any changes? I'm going to be trying this in a week or two.

Man this is a good beer.
 
banik said:
Ok. I'm drinking my first bottle of Le Terroir right now. As soon as I smelled it, I knew it was going to be good. Now, here I am - looking for a clone recipe.

Antiteam - Did you brew this exactly as posted? Did you make any changes? I'm going to be trying this in a week or two.

Man this is a good beer.
Click to expand...

When it hit the market this year I went around to my local liquor stores and bought up a case and a half.

I did a side-by-side tasting and it's almost spot on. Mine was clearer (it has been in a bottle for over a year) and has a bit less hop aroma (for the same reason) but it's incredibly close.

When I first brewed this recipe, I put it on the yeast cake of another sour I had done with Roselare blend. It didn't take off, so a few days later I ended up adding a fresh pack of Roselare blend. The beer ended up really sour in the end, likely due to the fact that there was a higher presence of souring bugs.

The second time I brewed it, I just pitched a single pack of Roselare. 4 months later, I tasted and it wasn't very sour. I grabbed a second packet and pitched. That was about a month ago and I'm starting to see a really funky looking pellicle forming, so it must be doing it's job. I probably could have instead pitched some other blend of souring organisms, but the Roselare seems to be doing what I need it to do.
 
Hey Antiteam...I am very interested in trying this clone. Can you post the final recipe you used that ended up the best? I am a little confused as to what worked and didn't so if you could post that, it would be much appreciated. Thanks!
 
I mostly followed BrewSkies original guess on a recipe for grain bill and hops. My first, and so far best, attempt was:

Le Terroir Clone

Grains
7 lbs 2-row
3 lbs Unmalted Wheat
1 lb Flaked Oats
1/2 oz Crystal 80

Hops
1 oz Target @ 60 min
1/2 oz Amarillo (Dry Hop 7 days before bottling)
1/2 oz Cascade (Dry Hop 7 days before bottling)

Yeast
Pitched on a yeast cake from a different sour that had been aging for a full year (that used Wyeast Roselare Blend #3763)
Three days later, I added a new pouch of Wyeast Roselare Blend #3763 to help kick off primary fermentation

Notes:
  • I believe I mashed this pretty high to give the sour bugs sugars to work on; Likely 158-ish
  • To give the souring organisms a place to live and impart a bit of oak flavor, I toasted an oak dowel and replaced the airlock with the dowel after a couple of months; There is lots of info on this process all over HBT
  • Primary fermentation died down after about a week; I didn't rack at all, I just left it as-is for aging on top of the yeast cake
  • Aged for just over one year like that; A week before I wanted to bottle, I dropped in the dry hops
  • You may or may not get a pellicle forming; I've seen both happen
  • When I transferred to my bottling bucket with priming sugar I also added a packet of US05 to help with carbonation, since after a year there isn't much viable Sacc in suspension to carbonate.
  • If you can't get unmalted wheat, flaked wheat, torrified wheat, or malted wheat will still work


I think that what really made that first batch awesome was re-using the yeast cake from the previous sour (because it brought so many bugs into the mix) then pitching more of the blend on top of it. I know that not everyone has something like that around - I didn't the most recent time I've brewed this - so what I'm trying out this go-around is:
  1. Pitch a pouch of Roselare Blend after the wort cools
  2. Allow for primary fermentation to run its course
  3. Let sit on the yeast cake after primary is done
  4. Pitch another pouch of the Roselare blend 3 months later to introduce even more souring bugs
  5. Age for another 9 months
 
antiteam said:
  1. Pitch a pouch of Roselare Blend after the wort cools
  2. Allow for primary fermentation to run its course
  3. Let sit on the yeast cake after primary is done
  4. Pitch another pouch of the Roselare blend 3 months later to introduce even more souring bugs
  5. Age for another 9 months
Click to expand...

Joined to say thanks for posting recipe antiteam. Just finished brewing today and plan on pitching another pouch of Roselare in a few months.
 
This looks great. I have been toying with the idea of coming up with a sour ipa blend but this looks pretty tempting too.

Grains
7 lbs 2-row
3 lbs Unmalted Wheat
1 lb Flaked Oats
1/2 oz Crystal 80
Click to expand...

Is that supposed to be 1/2 pound* of crystal 80?
 
CBMbrewer said:
This looks great. I have been toying with the idea of coming up with a sour ipa blend but this looks pretty tempting too.



Is that supposed to be 1/2 pound* of crystal 80?
Click to expand...

Ahhh... yes it is! Good catch.

Le Terroir Clone

Grains
7 lbs 2-row
3 lbs Unmalted Wheat
1 lb Flaked Oats
8 oz Crystal 80

Hops
1 oz Target @ 60 min
1/2 oz Amarillo (Dry Hop 7 days before bottling)
1/2 oz Cascade (Dry Hop 7 days before bottling)

Yeast
Pitched on a yeast cake from a different sour that had been aging for a full year (that used Wyeast Roselare Blend #3763)
Three days later, I added a new pouch of Wyeast Roselare Blend #3763 to help kick off primary fermentation

Notes:

I believe I mashed this pretty high to give the sour bugs sugars to work on; Likely 158-ish
To give the souring organisms a place to live and impart a bit of oak flavor, I toasted an oak dowel and replaced the airlock with the dowel after a couple of months; There is lots of info on this process all over HBT
Primary fermentation died down after about a week; I didn't rack at all, I just left it as-is for aging on top of the yeast cake
Aged for just over one year like that; A week before I wanted to bottle, I dropped in the dry hops
You may or may not get a pellicle forming; I've seen both happen
When I transferred to my bottling bucket with priming sugar I also added a packet of US05 to help with carbonation, since after a year there isn't much viable Sacc in suspension to carbonate.
If you can't get unmalted wheat, flaked wheat, torrified wheat, or malted wheat will still work



I think that what really made that first batch awesome was re-using the yeast cake from the previous sour (because it brought so many bugs into the mix) then pitching more of the blend on top of it. I know that not everyone has something like that around - I didn't the most recent time I've brewed this - so what I'm trying out this go-around is:

Pitch a pouch of Roselare Blend after the wort cools
Allow for primary fermentation to run its course
Let sit on the yeast cake after primary is done
Pitch another pouch of the Roselare blend 3 months later to introduce even more souring bugs
Age for another 9 months
Click to expand...

This isn't quite like an IPA becasue it lacks hop bitterness. In fact, I don't even really notice the hops while drinking, but once I have one and burp, I can DEFINITELY tell there are plenty of hops in there.
 
This isn't quite like an IPA becasue it lacks hop bitterness. In fact, I don't even really notice the hops while drinking, but once I have one and burp, I can DEFINITELY tell there are plenty of hops in there.
Click to expand...

Very nice! My idea for a sour ipa was to brew a sour, let it age, then brew an ipa and blend them so the hops would still be fresh once the sour was where I would want it. I've been brewing tons of ipa's recently though. I have brewed a berliner wiesse but would love to try my hand at a bigger, aged sour. I have also had Le Terroir on tap several times and really enjoyed it. One of my favorites from the Lips of Faith.
 
CBMbrewer said:
Very nice! My idea for a sour ipa was to brew a sour, let it age, then brew an ipa and blend them so the hops would still be fresh once the sour was where I would want it. I've been brewing tons of ipa's recently though. I have brewed a berliner wiesse but would love to try my hand at a bigger, aged sour. I have also had Le Terroir on tap several times and really enjoyed it. One of my favorites from the Lips of Faith.
Click to expand...

Blending is a great idea. Le Terroir is definitely my favorite of the Lips of Faith series and possibly one of my favorite beers of all time. The level of sourness with the dry hops are perfect together.
 
Just to throw it in the mix, I highly recommend the idea of pitching a second pouch of Roselare, rather than racking onto a larger yeast cake. Having experienced Roselare generations 1-8, I can tell you that as it gets older, the balance becomes undesirable. I once used it as generation 2, after a 5 gallon batch and it was fantastic. I tried that again, after a 50 gallon batch, and the results were less than impressive.
Sounds like a fun beer!
 
i just brewed 2 gallons of this with the recipe listed 4 weeks ago. this is our first attempt at brewing a sour. just want to make sure i have it right.

do i just leave it only for 6 months and then add more yeast to it?
secondary needed at anytime?

thanks for your help
 
jaw005 said:
i just brewed 2 gallons of this with the recipe listed 4 weeks ago. this is our first attempt at brewing a sour. just want to make sure i have it right.

do i just leave it only for 6 months and then add more yeast to it?
secondary needed at anytime?

thanks for your help
Click to expand...

Assuming you added a blend of microbes, I'd rack to secondary after 2-3 weeks. Then just let it sit until the gravity is stable before dry hopping. That could be 6-12 months. I would add fresh wine yeast at bottling to ensure it carbonates quickly and is ready to drink while the hop aroma is still fresh.
 
antiteam said:
Nice! Let us know how it turns out.
Click to expand...

Let it ferment with a package of Roselare for 3 months before pitching the second package of Roselare. Also pitched some champagne yeast right before bottling to make sure it carbed-up.

I noticed you're out of Chicago, so if you're going to DLD this year, I'd be more than happy to bring you a bottle to try. I had some "learning opportunities" while brewing and fermenting that I feel have influenced the final product, so I'd definitely like to try it again.

tgmartin is correct about the hops...New Belgium uses citra instead of cascade, but I think either would suffice.
 
jaw005 said:
i just brewed 2 gallons of this with the recipe listed 4 weeks ago. this is our first attempt at brewing a sour. just want to make sure i have it right.

do i just leave it only for 6 months and then add more yeast to it?
secondary needed at anytime?

thanks for your help
Click to expand...

That is exactly what I did the last time I brewed this recipe and it turned out great. 1 pouch of Roselare to start and another at 6 months. No secondary.
 
turny said:
Let it ferment with a package of Roselare for 3 months before pitching the second package of Roselare. Also pitched some champagne yeast right before bottling to make sure it carbed-up.

I noticed you're out of Chicago, so if you're going to DLD this year, I'd be more than happy to bring you a bottle to try. I had some "learning opportunities" while brewing and fermenting that I feel have influenced the final product, so I'd definitely like to try it again.

tgmartin is correct about the hops...New Belgium uses citra instead of cascade, but I think either would suffice.
Click to expand...

Ahhh... that would have been great, but unfortunately I've since moved out of the Chicago area.

Good call to both of you on the citra vs. cascade. I'll have to try swapping out for citra the next time I brew this.
 

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