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Old 03-15-2013, 11:06 PM   #21
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My point exactly. We learn from trying new things and listening to third party opinion. Whether we choose to heed the advice of others or not... it's better knowing the possiblities rather than sticking to our own old ways that we have always followed; those which we cannot even explain why they may or may not work. You don't progress that way.

If an intermediate or veteran brewer knows EXACTLY what they want in a future beer, and they know that this includes an incorporation of FWH, then I will not argue with their goals or opinions. But when the same brewers purge this same advice on new brewers to convince them that FWH is the best way, the only way, the smartest way to go for IPAs, well then I have a problem with that. It is simply "a way". Not the best or the smartest by any means. Smooth, highly hopped, top-rated commerical IPAs have been brewed for awhile now, and FWH was never the reason for their success. If you're sensing harshness, astringency, roughness, unpleasantness... then it is due to other reasons associated with poor brewing processes. It has nothing to do with FWH vs. Traditional Bitter.

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Old 03-16-2013, 02:02 AM   #22
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FWH completely prevents any ability to obtain an upfront bitterness. If you are getting it, then the FWH process failed for you
Just so other brewers aren't mislead, this paragraph isn't right, and I think Jamil Z. and Tasty McDole agree. A brewer in my homebrew club who routinely wins medals for his IPAs uses the FWH technique.

Just because some one says something with an authoritative tone, doesn't make them an authority.

I want to be clear, I don't think you must use FWH to make a top-quality IPA. But to say that FWH is inappropriate for the AIPA style is not correct.
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Old 03-16-2013, 03:45 AM   #23
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M

If an intermediate or veteran brewer knows EXACTLY what they want in a future beer, and they know that this includes an incorporation of FWH, then I will not argue with their goals or opinions.
Since you are arguing incessantly with me, I guess that means that I'm not an intermediate or veteran brewer? Am I a beginner in your eyes, as you have not stopped arguing with my opinion, test results, the winning of medals, the opinion of respected brewers who have consumed my IPA with FWH (including Ray Daniels)?

See, that's the thing. You argue about things you cannot prove. Your opinion is valued, but telling other people who are experienced veterans that their process and opinions (and medals!) are invalid is inappropriate.

Everyone should give their opinion- but to beat people over the head when they don't agree with you isn't appreciated.
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Old 03-16-2013, 09:13 PM   #24
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Since you are arguing incessantly with me, I guess that means that I'm not an intermediate or veteran brewer? Am I a beginner in your eyes, as you have not stopped arguing with my opinion, test results, the winning of medals, the opinion of respected brewers who have consumed my IPA with FWH (including Ray Daniels)?

See, that's the thing. You argue about things you cannot prove. Your opinion is valued, but telling other people who are experienced veterans that their process and opinions (and medals!) are invalid is inappropriate.

Everyone should give their opinion- but to beat people over the head when they don't agree with you isn't appreciated.
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Old 03-18-2013, 01:17 PM   #25
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Others like FWH, including me and Denny Conn.
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My IPAs are very good. I have won awards via the NHC with a FWH IPA. I guess that Ray Daniels (when we drank it together) is no judge of a good IPA?
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I guess that means that I'm not an intermediate or veteran brewer? Am I a beginner in your eyes, as you have not stopped arguing with my opinion, test results, the winning of medals, the opinion of respected brewers who have consumed my IPA with FWH (including Ray Daniels)?
No need with the continous name-dropping, throwing around your credentials, and saying how good you are...

Just address the questions and details presented (instead of general blanket statements about how FWH works for you). You managed to bypass the whole sulfate thing and your fallacy about its relationship to "harsh" bitterness. The IBU comment I made was even overlooked by you, who seems to believe that IBUs are always to blame for any harshness sensed in a bitter beer. Nor did you care to comment as to why you're promoting a method (FWH) so much that you can't even explain. Just because someone has 100% faith in something which they can't explain, yet they urge others to follow in their footsteps, doesn't mean that others should follow... Well, come to think of it, I guess that explains organized religion too.

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Just so other brewers aren't mislead, this paragraph isn't right
I guess I should've used the word "harsh" there so that people wouldn't be mislead. For me... firm/harsh/forward/upfront/strong all mean the same thing when we're talking about hop bitterness in an IPA. The FWH technique mutes that type of bitterness to give you something smooth/delicate/balanced/level/restrained. Balanced and restrained are pretty much horrible words to describe an inherently bitter, hop forward style of beer.
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Old 03-18-2013, 07:42 PM   #26
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I guess I should've used the word "harsh" there so that people wouldn't be mislead. For me... firm/harsh/forward/upfront/strong all mean the same thing when we're talking about hop bitterness in an IPA. The FWH technique mutes that type of bitterness to give you something smooth/delicate/balanced/level/restrained. Balanced and restrained are pretty much horrible words to describe an inherently bitter, hop forward style of beer.
Here's the problem - you are speaking in absolutes. I don't care if you use or don't use FWH technique in IPAs, its perfectly legitimate for you to say that you prefer one or the other.

What's not ok or accurate or correct is to insist that others must agree with you. I do not. My evidence is that many award winning IPAs are made using the FWH technique. These are not beers that are "smooth/delicate/balanced/restrained". Again, Mike McDole and other brewers I personally know have won gold medals with IPAs made with the FWH technique.

I hate it when brewers try to bully other brewers by stating absolutes as you are. You don't like FWH in IPAs - that's great. But to say that you cannot make a great IPA using the FWH technique is just plain wrong.
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Old 03-18-2013, 07:45 PM   #27
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Wow, alright. I didn't know that I was speaking in absolutes any more than the folks were with the alternate viewpoint. I guess my general tone is more brute and direct, but I can't help that. It's how I talk/write. At least I'm not dropping names and awards, blindly recommending the method, and not discussing the science behind it or why I believe in it. I am definitely not one to beat around the bush, but I wasn't trying to bully anyone into submission either. For what it's worth, sorry if I upset anyone.

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Old 03-18-2013, 08:03 PM   #28
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My name is BierMuncher. And I FWH my IIPA's

"Tis Up" - 2 Golds, 1 Silver.

I think I'll go with what works for me.

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Old 03-18-2013, 09:31 PM   #29
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Wow, alright. I didn't know that I was speaking in absolutes ...
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FWH completely prevents any ability to obtain an upfront bitterness.
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Old 03-18-2013, 09:49 PM   #30
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@mmb that is not speaking in absolutes. That is speaking in facts. Any upfront roughness/harshness you're getting should not be from the FWH hops. The misunderstanding resulted from my choice of using "upfront" vs. harsh, rough, or strong.

I'll repeat... The FWH process is used to make another process better. It has very little to do with hop bittering or flavoring contributions from the hops added during FWH. It is used for the reason that the wort gravity is at the highest during the 1st run off. Adding hops as soon as the bottom of the boiler is covered with high density wort, breaks the surface tension of the wort and reduces the amount of hot break foam. This allowed the brewer to fill the boiler with a larger quantity of wort, without worrying about boil over. The krausen will be cleaner during fermentation. A decoction uses 5% of the weight of the bittering hops. An infusion uses 10-15%. The reason for the difference in weight, is that during the rests and boiling of the mash in a decoction, proteins that hops need to overcome, are reduced. The process of FWH is for producing a smooth, clean beer. Nothing more. If the finished beer has a smooth, clean hop profile, the process was done correctly. If a rough bitterness is detected, the process failed.

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