justclancy

Recipes 

I was wondering about the differences between Munich malt and Melanoiden malt. I can only get munich malt in 5 kg increments, but can get melanoiden malt in 1 kg increments. For upcoming recipes I will only need a small amount of these types of grains, so I would like to get the melanoiden.
My problem is that I have never used melanoiden malt, so I would like to know how it is similar to, and different from, munich malt. I have used munich malt in high percentages, up to 50% of the grain bill, and have liked the results. To get a similar type of effect from melanoiden malt as I get from munich malt would I have to use significantly less melanoiden malt?
For example, if I had a recipe that was 80% pils and 20% munich, could I substitute the melanoiden for the munich, use 90% pils and 10% mel, and get a similar tasting beer?
Any thoughts on these two malts?

Edit: the lighter, about 8L munich, not the darker 20L munich.

badhabit

Recipes 

Weyermann recommends use of Melanoiden up to 20% of total grist. From experiance I have learned to use 10% for a nice malty profile that you can balance with finishing hops. If I want a very malty style with less or little hop finish I will go to the 20%. I started using 5% and was disapointed with the malt profile. All that said it is going to be determined by your taste.

justclancy

Recipes 

Interesting. So would you say that Munich and Melanoiden give the beer a similar flavor, and a similar type of body, but that you need less of the Melanoiden than you would Munich?

usfmikeb

Recipes 

IMO there's a flavor difference between the two. I might replace some of the Munich with melanoidin, but definitely not all of it.

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Primary: Apfelwein 6/12, Peach Pyment 2/12, Cherry Melomel 9/12
Secondary: Douglah Capsicumel 10/11, Chocolate Mead 10/11, Bochet Mead 11/11, Cranberry Mead 11/11, Elderbarrel Flanders Kriek 9/12, Skeeter Pee 6/12
Bottle Conditioning: Spiced Mead 5/11, Peach Mango Mead 7/11, Spiced Cherry Dubbel 8/11
Kegged: English Barleywine 11/11, Chocolate Stout 2/12, Apfelwein 2/12
On Tap: Porter 10/12, Cherry Dubbel 9/12, Yooper's Pale Ale 11/12
Gallons in 2012: 88

usfmikeb

Recipes 

Keep style of beer in mind as well, Munich is key to many European beers.

__________________
Primary: Apfelwein 6/12, Peach Pyment 2/12, Cherry Melomel 9/12
Secondary: Douglah Capsicumel 10/11, Chocolate Mead 10/11, Bochet Mead 11/11, Cranberry Mead 11/11, Elderbarrel Flanders Kriek 9/12, Skeeter Pee 6/12
Bottle Conditioning: Spiced Mead 5/11, Peach Mango Mead 7/11, Spiced Cherry Dubbel 8/11
Kegged: English Barleywine 11/11, Chocolate Stout 2/12, Apfelwein 2/12
On Tap: Porter 10/12, Cherry Dubbel 9/12, Yooper's Pale Ale 11/12
Gallons in 2012: 88

badhabit

Recipes 

Whatever it is in Melanoidin (it may actually be called Melanoidin) that gives it the very malty flavor is also present in large amounts in Munich and in Vienna. The first difference is that it is in higher concentration in Melanoidin than in the others. Melanoidin was developed (by Weyermann I think?) as a specialty grain to add the malty taste without having to use larger ammounts of other malty base malts, Munich and Vienna in particular. Both of the others can be used as a base malt and are often used as a specialty.
That all being said Munich and Melanoidin are not the same. Munich has other flavors and even other malting temps (Munich I and Munich II) that add other flavors.
As far as mouth feel, they are not malted to enhance mouth feel. That can be enhanced with mashing technique and with the addition of a half to 1 lb of Cara-Pils

pjj2ba

Recipes 

I believe Melanoidon malt is most similar to Aromatic malt, and then Biscuit malt. I find Munich to be much richer and melanoidin to be more "neutral" flavored, but adding nice body

__________________
On Tap: CAP, Saison, Kolsch
Kegged and Aging/Lagering: Imperial Alt, CAP, GDR pils, Kolsch, OKZ (std Amer. lager), CZ pils
Secondary:
Primary: Saison, Session IPA
Brewing soon: IPA, light beer - yes, light beer
Recently kicked : ( Bock, Baltic Porter, Ger. Pils, Lite IPA,
Pilsner Urquell Master Homebrewer (1st NYC 2011, 2nd NYC 2012)
P U crowns winners in its inaugural master HB competition

ghpeel

Recipes 

Melanoiden can give a very slight "fruit" character. I believe I was Denny who posted that somewhere, and it perfectly described a lager I had just done. It was a good, subtle flavor, not "fruity", just a weird kind of sweetness.

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Kegged: Mr. Hyde's Dark Hearted English Ale, Pumpkin Lager, Bro'Hemian Pilsner
Lagering:
Primary:
Resting: Stinky Pete's Midnight Wheat
No-Chill: Graham's Cracker Brown Ale
Bottled: Lowland Oatmeal Porter, Adieu Travail Belgian Sour, Golden Blossom Braggot

PeterBrews

Recipes 

As it has been explained to me, melanoidins, formed as a result of the Maillard reaction (think bread crust), are best extracted from malt especially kilned malts (Vienna, Munich, victory, biscuit) by decoction mashing. Double and triple decoctions assumably achieve even better results in big well-rounded bready malt flavors. However, since homebrewers may not want to add 2-3 hours of extra brew time, you have melanoidin malt produced commercially as a substitute. However, there's never been a perfect substitute for hard work and extra waiting in brewing. Especially German brewing.

Someone please correct me if any of this is erroneous.

Cheers

Peter