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Old 12-23-2012, 11:14 PM   #1
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Default Tomorrow's Brew loosely based on Pliny DIPA - last minute tweaks?

So Im planning to brew this tomorrow morning. The recipe is loosely based on the Pliny the Elder clone I've seen on here.

I pushed a good portion of the early addition hops to closer flavor/aroma additions (added FWH, moved 45 min and 30 min to 20 minutes, etc.). It felt like 220 IBUs was a little bit of a waste of all those yummy hops so early in the boil.

I also subbed Citra for all the Simcoe boil additions since I dont have Simcoe yet (in the mail).

Does anyone have any last minute edits or thoughts on this recipe? I have surplus of all hops shown plus some other hops in my arsenal that I could use such as Amarillo, Cascade, Belma, Northern Brewer.

BeerSmith 2 Recipe Printout - http://www.beersmith.com
Recipe: Pliny Clone
Brewer: Kevin
Asst Brewer:
Style: Imperial IPA
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (30.0)

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Boil Size: 13.26 gal
Post Boil Volume: 11.44 gal
Batch Size (fermenter): 10.50 gal
Bottling Volume: 10.50 gal
Estimated OG: 1.073 SG
Estimated Color: 8.6 SRM
Estimated IBU: 171.5 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 68.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 71.8 %
Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
14.00 g Gypsum (Calcium Sulfate) (Mash 60.0 mins Water Agent 1 -
24 lbs Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 2 82.8 %
1 lbs 8.0 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L (60.0 SRM) Grain 3 5.2 %
1 lbs Cara-Pils/Dextrine (2.0 SRM) Grain 4 3.4 %
4.00 oz Columbus (Tomahawk) [14.00 %] - First Wo Hop 5 58.5 IBUs
2 lbs 8.0 oz Sugar, Table (Sucrose) (1.0 SRM) Sugar 6 8.6 %
3.00 oz Columbus (Tomahawk) [14.00 %] - Boil 90. Hop 7 70.4 IBUs
2.00 oz Citra [12.00 %] - Boil 20.0 min Hop 8 22.8 IBUs
1.50 oz Columbus (Tomahawk) [14.00 %] - Boil 20. Hop 9 19.9 IBUs
5.00 oz Citra [12.00 %] - Boil 0.0 min Hop 10 0.0 IBUs
3.00 oz Centennial [10.00 %] - Boil 0.0 min Hop 11 0.0 IBUs
3.00 oz Nugget [13.00 %] - Boil 0.0 min Hop 12 0.0 IBUs
2.00 oz Centennial [10.00 %] - Dry Hop 12.0 Days Hop 13 0.0 IBUs
2.00 oz Columbus (Tomahawk) [14.00 %] - Dry Hop Hop 14 0.0 IBUs
2.00 oz Simcoe [13.00 %] - Dry Hop 12.0 Days Hop 15 0.0 IBUs
0.50 oz Centennial [10.00 %] - Dry Hop 5.0 Days Hop 16 0.0 IBUs
0.50 oz Columbus (Tomahawk) [14.00 %] - Dry Hop Hop 17 0.0 IBUs
0.50 oz Simcoe [13.00 %] - Dry Hop 5.0 Days Hop 18 0.0 IBUs


Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Light Body, Batch Sparge
Total Grain Weight: 29 lbs
----------------------------
Name Description Step Temperat Step Time
Mash In Add 34.13 qt of water at 167.0 F 150.0 F 75 min

Sparge: Batch sparge with 3 steps (Drain mash tun, , 4.65gal, 3.51gal) of 168.0 F water
Notes:
------

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Old 12-23-2012, 11:31 PM   #2
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Fourteen grams of gypsum is alot, but I assume you know your water chemistry and have a reason for adding that much.

As far as the hopping, I'd consider reducing the FWH to 2-3 ounces, as it'll be plenty bitter but you probably won't tell the difference anyway!

I might consider using some of the hops at 15/10/5, instead of all in big lumps, even though I love the original Pliny clone. I just think you get more hops flavor that way, but it could be all in my head, too!

I don't like citra, so I can't comment on how that will be vs simcoe.

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Old 12-23-2012, 11:58 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yooper View Post
Fourteen grams of gypsum is alot, but I assume you know your water chemistry and have a reason for adding that much.

As far as the hopping, I'd consider reducing the FWH to 2-3 ounces, as it'll be plenty bitter but you probably won't tell the difference anyway!

I might consider using some of the hops at 15/10/5, instead of all in big lumps, even though I love the original Pliny clone. I just think you get more hops flavor that way, but it could be all in my head, too!

I don't like citra, so I can't comment on how that will be vs simcoe.
Thanks for pointing that out. Its actually supposed to be 7 grams but must have gotten scaled in Beersmith. I dont know my water chemistry exactly but my last IPA I added 7 grams of gypsum to the boil and it was the best IPA Ive ever made.

I had thought that I should maybe drop the FWH or 60 minute addition a little bit, but the Pliny clone called for 3.5 oz at 60 for a 5 gallon batch so I didnt want to take hops away.

As far as Citra goes, I've fallen in love with it after that last IPA I did. I know it wont be the same as it would with all Simcoe but tomorrow is one of the only times I have to brew. I havent ever had Pliny and probably wont anytime soon so I dont think I'll notice the difference. When the Simcoe shows up it will be used in a dryhop for sure.

Thanks for the thoughts! I figure with all these hops it just cant go wrong but I want to make it as best as possible.
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Old 12-24-2012, 02:58 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kpr121 View Post
I pushed a good portion of the early addition hops to closer flavor/aroma additions (added FWH, moved 45 min and 30 min to 20 minutes, etc.). It felt like 220 IBUs was a little bit of a waste of all those yummy hops so early in the boil.
Pliny gets that unique flavor by not overlooking the intended amount of early/middle additions. These additions do offer flavor, just not the same type of juicy hopbursted flavor you would get from the shifting 90% or more of your hop focus late. You get something more complex, with layers of hop flavor, instead of a simple burst of one note juicy fruit.

The IBUs may be wasted (particularly since 220 IBUs is not what is actually dissolved in the wort, not to mention this amount of bitterness is not sensed on the human palate) however, flavor building and added hop complexity from these early additions is still being offered. For best results, I would follow the locations and amounts of those hops more closely. This is simple if you have Vinny's PDF... Just scale up a bit since this is a 10.50 gallon batch.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kpr121 View Post
I also subbed Citra for all the Simcoe boil additions since I dont have Simcoe yet.
Then you'll have a very different beer. Pliny is extremely Simcoe focused. Amarillo, Centennial, Columbus, and Cascade will get you closer than Citra, but they are not Simcoe replacements. I would definitely not use Belma or NB.

I would bitter with CTZ and Nugget at 90, then add CTZ at 45, Nugget at 30, Centennial, Amarillo, and Cascade at 0, and for the DH add all of your Simcoe, plus more CTZ and Amarillo. No Citra... or if you must, then use a tiny bit at 30 and/or 0.

This part confuses me...

"4.00 oz Columbus (Tomahawk) [14.00 %] - First Wort Hop 58.5 IBUs"
"3.00 oz Columbus (Tomahawk) [14.00 %] - Boil 90. Hop 70.4 IBUs"

How do you expect 4 oz of CTZ, boiled for the same amount of time, to offer less IBUs than 3 oz of the same hop at 90? The amount of IBUs offered with an oz. more hops at FWH should not differ that much.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kpr121 View Post
Does anyone have any last minute edits or thoughts on this recipe? I have surplus of all hops shown plus some other hops in my arsenal that I could use such as Amarillo, Cascade, Belma, Northern Brewer.
I don't know what you expect from the FWH. Pliny is already quite smooth without it... despite having a ridiculous amount of early and middle additions, and approx. 12 oz. total hops per 5 gallon batch. You could be left with a very juice-like beer, especially with the Citra substitute. If that is what you want, then go for it.

I would not use C-60 for this clone. If I didn't have C-45, then I'd go lighter, not darker. Actually, I would personally use C-20 or C-30 for an improved-tasting Pliny.

Yeast??? Are you making a starter?? Lastly, 8.6% sucrose is quite a bit for an all-grain IIPA. Something to think about.
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Old 12-24-2012, 07:52 PM   #5
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Bobbrews, thanks for your thoughtful and concise comments. They truly are appreciated.

I wish I would have waited to brew the beer until after reading your response but I brewed the beer this morning, mostly as shown with a few tweaks. I did not get rid of the citra so maybe I will have a fruit bomb that is not anything like Pliny. Let me try to respond to your comments...

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobbrews View Post
Pliny gets that unique flavor by not overlooking the intended amount of early/middle additions. These additions do offer flavor, just not the same type of juicy hopbursted flavor you would get from the shifting 90% or more of your hop focus late. You get something more complex, with layers of hop flavor, instead of a simple burst of one note juicy fruit.

The IBUs may be wasted (particularly since 220 IBUs is not what is actually dissolved in the wort, not to mention this amount of bitterness is not sensed on the human palate) however, flavor building and added hop complexity from these early additions is still being offered. For best results, I would follow the locations and amounts of those hops more closely. This is simple if you have Vinny's PDF... Just scale up a bit since this is a 10.50 gallon batch.


Then you'll have a very different beer. Pliny is extremely Simcoe focused. Amarillo, Centennial, Columbus, and Cascade will get you closer than Citra, but they are not Simcoe replacements. I would definitely not use Belma or NB.
I'm hoping the Columbus charges will give me some balance against all the citra. Simcoe will be utilized in the dry hops as I am expecting to have them shipped within the week.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobbrews View Post
I would bitter with CTZ and Nugget at 90, then add CTZ at 45, Nugget at 30, Centennial, Amarillo, and Cascade at 0, and for the DH add all of your Simcoe, plus more CTZ and Amarillo. No Citra... or if you must, then use a tiny bit at 30 and/or 0.

This part confuses me...

"4.00 oz Columbus (Tomahawk) [14.00 %] - First Wort Hop 58.5 IBUs"
"3.00 oz Columbus (Tomahawk) [14.00 %] - Boil 90. Hop 70.4 IBUs"

How do you expect 4 oz of CTZ, boiled for the same amount of time, to offer less IBUs than 3 oz of the same hop at 90? The amount of IBUs offered with an oz. more hops at FWH should not differ that much.
I set the FWH time at 20 minutes in Beersmith, based on what I have seen that first wort hopping is equivalent in bitterness to a 20 minute addition. I'm not sure that I agree with it either, but like we've talked about above the IBUs sorta dont matter when they get up above a certain point.


Quote:
Originally Posted by bobbrews View Post
I don't know what you expect from the FWH. Pliny is already quite smooth without it... despite having a ridiculous amount of early and middle additions, and approx. 12 oz. total hops per 5 gallon batch. You could be left with a very juice-like beer, especially with the Citra substitute. If that is what you want, then go for it.
I FWH nearly all of my hoppy beers. Just something I'm used to and seem to like.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobbrews View Post
I would not use C-60 for this clone. If I didn't have C-45, then I'd go lighter, not darker. Actually, I would personally use C-20 or C-30 for an improved-tasting Pliny.
I ended up only using 1 lb of C-60, its what I have on hand.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobbrews View Post
Yeast??? Are you making a starter??
Pitched 5.25 gallons on half a yeast cake of US-05. Other half went on a half a cake of WY1318.


Quote:
Originally Posted by bobbrews View Post
Lastly, 8.6% sucrose is quite a bit for an all-grain IIPA. Something to think about.
I ended up dropping this down to around 5% (1.5 lbs) since my efficiency was a little better than first expected.

Thanks again! This beer is definitely not going to be a ringer for Pliny. But then again like I said I've never had Pliny so I wont know the difference! Should be tasty either way!
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Old 12-24-2012, 07:59 PM   #6
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Oh and it smells amazing in my garage/brewery after this morning's brew session!

I even ended up squeezing the hop bag into a cup and blending that with my Amber IPA I was sipping on all morning!

Cant wait to see how this turns out.

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