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Old 02-11-2009, 04:30 PM   #1
tekhna
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Default Learning how to design recipes-thoughts and critiques?

I am getting interested in designing my own beers, and I understand most of the parameters, I am still not sure though that I understand scheduling, and how it affects the final outcomes of beers.

So, in my total ignorance, I mixed up this IPA, which I am sure is pretty generic, but seems like it could be interesting. I am sure to you pros though, it's a mess. Using this recipe, could you tell me a bit more about how scheduling and hop selection will change flavor. Other than IBUs, that's pretty straight forward.

Thanks

Grain Rahr Standard 2-Row 10 lbs 8 oz
Carmel Vienna 1.5 lbs
2 Row Carmel 10 8 Oz
2 Row Carmel 60 8 oz
Carapils 8 Oz


Columbus 1 oz-60 minutes
Centennial .5 oz-45 minutes
Simcoe .5oz 15 minutes
Centennial .5 oz 10 minutes
Amarillo .5 oz 5 minutes
Simcoe 1 oz 0 minutes

Dry hop-Cascade

The thought here was a sort of darker, citrusy IPA without getting into IIPA territory, although the IBUs are high. Maybe drop the Centennial at 45? That drops 20 IBUs Here are the calculations:
OG 1.069
FG 1.017
IBUs 75.3
ABV 6.8
SRM 11 (Could go darker?)

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Old 02-11-2009, 04:32 PM   #2
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I'm no recipe guru, but 75 IBUs isn't crazy by any means for an IPA

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Old 02-11-2009, 04:38 PM   #3
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I think the grain bill looks pretty good. The hop schedule looks a little busy to me. I'll admit that I'm still not an expert on hop schedules. I'd choose 3 types that would compliment eachother. If you are dry hopping with cascade, its going to overpower most of the other aromas from the other hops. Maybe bitter with Centennial, equal parts of amarillo and cascade @ 30 and 10, amarillo @ 5, then dry hop with cascade? Shoot for around the same IBU's you have now. Others will probably have better advice on hops though.

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Old 02-11-2009, 04:46 PM   #4
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First Wort Hopping, that is adding hops to the kettle and running the wort onto them, then bringing up to a boil. Is believed to impart a charge of flavor and aroma but , AFAIK, it's one of those brewing wonders of the world.

At 60 minutes alpha acids are completely isomerized and contribute to a bittering balance against the malt sugars.

Later additions contribute less toward bittering and more toward flavor when approaching the 30 minute (to end of boil) mark.

From there flavor contribution slowly gives way to aroma.

It has to do with the mechanics of the boil scrubbing character out and contact time with the wort.

Dry hopping however does provide flavor and aroma given a fair amount of contact.

For more on hops read about Alpha acids, isomerization, and Beta acids.

As far as combinations that is tough but, a good place to start is with the rule of herbs. If they don't smell good together, they probly won't taste good together.

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Old 02-11-2009, 04:54 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GilaMinumBeer View Post
First Wort Hopping, that is adding hops to the kettle and running the wort onto them, then bringing up to a boil. Is believed to impart a charge of flavor and aroma but , AFAIK, it's one of those brewing wonders of the world.

At 60 minutes alpha acids are completely isomerized and contribute to a bittering balance against the malt sugars.

Later additions contribute less toward bittering and more toward flavor when approaching the 30 minute (to end of boil) mark.

From there flavor contribution slowly gives way to aroma.

It has to do with the mechanics of the boil scrubbing character out and contact time with the wort.

Dry hopping however does provide flavor and aroma given a fair amount of contact.

For more on hops read about Alpha acids, isomerization, and Beta acids.

As far as combinations that is tough but, a good place to start is with the rule of herbs. If they don't smell good together, they probly won't taste good together.
Heh, that's a good rule of thumb on smell. My question was more specific I guess; I understand the basics of hop addition, but what difference does it make if it's added at 5 minutes instead of 10, in practice? I see why it does, but the how, which I guess come from experience is getting me.
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Old 02-11-2009, 05:00 PM   #6
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Instead of dropping a hop addition, bring closer to the end of the boil.

In my mind, a 45 minute and a60 minute addition are the same.

I like to get just enough hops in at 60 minutes (or First wort hopped) to get me within 60-60% of my target IBU's and then everything else gets in with 20 minutes or less.

Pushes the flavor and aroma up without the puckering bitter factor. Also makes the IPA easier to drink sooner.

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Old 02-11-2009, 05:22 PM   #7
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Won't the chill time have a big effect on the flavor:aroma ratio of late additions? When I used to just do a partial ice bath in my kitchen sink it took quite a while to cool the wort down and I swear I couldn't get much good aroma no matter how late I added hops. Seemed like every late addition ended up being pure flavor. Probably why to this day I never add any flavor additions...all bittering and aroma. I did finally get an IC but no drinkable beers since using it. This weekend will be the first using the IC with an ice water reservoir and pump. I really hope this helps with aroma.

Also, doesn't blow-off vs. no blow-off have a big effect on flavor/aroma? Especially aroma? Everytime I clean the blowoff tube I can smell nice hop aroma...then the beer has little to none.

I'm hoping between the IC, the ice water reservoir, and preventing/reducing blow-offs that my hop aroma will increase...significantly.

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Old 02-11-2009, 05:57 PM   #8
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To me, your grain bill looks great for a strong IPA.

The hops look fine for IBUs, too. You don't need a drop in bitterness.

The only question I had was whether you really want/need 5 different kinds of hops. My own predilection is to go with fewer kinds than more. I love those SMaSH-like single hop IPAs where you have an all Simcoe or all Centennial IPA. I think you're OK with the timing and amount at each addition. If it were me though, I'd go with 2 or at most 3 varieties for those additions, not 5 varieties.

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Old 02-11-2009, 08:53 PM   #9
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The only problem I see is way too many varieties of hops. I like to see a max of 3 with one of them being a high-alpha hop for bittering only (something like Magnum). Also, I like to do agressive 0 or 5 minute and 15 minute additions for flavor and aroma instead of "wasting" those IBUs on the boil hops.

Daniels makes an interesting point about designing hop additions in Designing Great Beers. You should set a target IBU and then start from your aroma and flavor hops and work backwards to bittering. The example in the book sets a target of 45 IBU for a Pale Ale of all Cascade. He wants to hop at 60, 20, 10 and 2. So he figures of .5 oz at 2, .5 oz at 10 and 1 oz at 20 for a total contribution of 18 IBU. At that point he figures out what the amount he needs to add at 60 to make up the 27 IBU to hit his target of 45 IBU.

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Old 02-11-2009, 09:03 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpanishCastleAle View Post
Won't the chill time have a big effect on the flavor:aroma ratio of late additions? When I used to just do a partial ice bath in my kitchen sink it took quite a while to cool the wort down and I swear I couldn't get much good aroma no matter how late I added hops. Seemed like every late addition ended up being pure flavor. Probably why to this day I never add any flavor additions...all bittering and aroma. I did finally get an IC but no drinkable beers since using it. This weekend will be the first using the IC with an ice water reservoir and pump. I really hope this helps with aroma.

Also, doesn't blow-off vs. no blow-off have a big effect on flavor/aroma? Especially aroma? Everytime I clean the blowoff tube I can smell nice hop aroma...then the beer has little to none.

I'm hoping between the IC, the ice water reservoir, and preventing/reducing blow-offs that my hop aroma will increase...significantly.
I think the answer to all your questions is yes! The biggest problem is there are so many flavor compounds and aroma compounds that are produced by the addition of hops that no one really knows it all works. Some of the compounds are found directly in the hops and others are produced when the hop compounds are boiled and oxidized. Even then it depends on time, temperature, pressure, etc, etc, etc.

The consensus seems to be that hop "aroma" is produced by the essential oils in the hops. This is the one part of the hop that is very volatile even at low temperatures. If you want to get the most aroma you need to dry hop with whole leaf hops and drink your beer fast. Since you're kegging, try letting the beer age as it normally would, but before you start to drink it toss an ounce of whole hops right into the keg and give it two or three days.
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