Come enter the BrewHardware Giveaway!


Home Brew Forums > Home Brewing Beer > Recipes/Ingredients > Large calculation differences between Brewing Classic Styles and BeerSmith
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 02-25-2014, 03:07 AM   #21
thehopbandit
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 120
Liked 2 Times on 2 Posts
Likes Given: 1

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DSmith View Post
Did you listen to the Jamil Show for that style? I think partial mashing is discussed for extract brewers better than the book for this recipe. Those podcasts and the book go hand- in-hand, and you learn their format of the show and how to fast forward to the recipe specifics.


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew
I did not listen to that in conjunction with the recipe, but I will check them out in the future. I most definitely think partial mash would be the way to go if not doing all-grain on this one. It may have been prudent for them to include that recommendation. In any light, I'm sure it'll be great!
__________________
thehopbandit is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-25-2014, 12:16 PM   #22
balrog
HBT_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: , MA
Posts: 547
Liked 103 Times on 79 Posts
Likes Given: 202

Default

thehopbandit, I'm running into EXACTLY the same issue with BeerSmith vs LHBS recipes; differences between OG. In my case, the LHBS OG were what I observed, and the BS 'extract' recipes much lower--for MOST recipes but not all. In your recent findings, are you saying that BeerSmith set to "Extract" type matched your observed OG?

__________________
balrog is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-25-2014, 03:45 PM   #23
thehopbandit
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 120
Liked 2 Times on 2 Posts
Likes Given: 1

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by balrog View Post
thehopbandit, I'm running into EXACTLY the same issue with BeerSmith vs LHBS recipes; differences between OG. In my case, the LHBS OG were what I observed, and the BS 'extract' recipes much lower--for MOST recipes but not all. In your recent findings, are you saying that BeerSmith set to "Extract" type matched your observed OG?

Yep! Basically what I have found is that Beersmith seems to be right on as far is OG is concerned. This is, of course, if your equipment profile is properly dialed in. BCS was basically assuming roughly 10-14 gravity points coming from steeping grains which is just unrealistic. BeerSmith correctly calculated roughly 3 points which is what I found to be true.
__________________
thehopbandit is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-26-2014, 04:13 AM   #24
ajf
Senior Member
HBT_LIFETIMESUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
ajf's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Long Island
Posts: 4,643
Liked 100 Times on 94 Posts
Likes Given: 39

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by thehopbandit View Post
Interesting. I wonder why there is the difference in treatment by Jamil in BCS and by BeerSmith? Beersmith accounts for very nominal increases in OG due to steeping grain, while Jamil assumes that the steeping grain will (roughly) yield similar results to mashing (70%). Which is closer to reality?

In the past, I have entered in extract recipes from kits I have purchased using the extract (not partial mash) setting and they seem to be spot on with the OG. Using BCS logic, I should have seen a much higher OG as a result of the steeping grains. That's why I am a little bit leery to go with the fact the BCS recipe assumes a MUCH higher yield from the steeping grains.

I understand the logic behind each, but it seems like to me that the way BeerSmith handles the calculation makes more sense than assuming the high steeping yield that BCS does.

I appreciate your help.
To understand where the discrepancy comes from, it is necessary to understand how brewing software such as Beersmith and Promash estimates the OG, and how the OG estimates were derived in BCS.
When doing all grain recipes, you need to specify a conversion efficiency percentage, which indicates what percentage of the potential sugars can be extracted from the grains during the mash/lauter process. The software multiplies the maximum theoretical extraction from the grains by this percentage to estimate the pre-boil gravity.
The conversion factor is only used for grains. If you add extract or sugar, they are treated as 100% convertible as all conversion (if any) has already been performed.
Using Beersmith or Promash, you can make a recipe using only extract and optionally sugar, and the predicted OG will not change if you select extract, partial mash, or all grain; even if you specify different conversion efficiencies for partial mash and all grain. (You cannot specify an efficiency for extract.)
If you use either program to make a recipe using only grains (either base grains or specialty grains) and specify partial mash or all grain, then the predicted OG will change in proportion to the efficiency. This is not completely correct, as if you make a recipe using only specialty grains, there will be no enzymes to convert the starches to sugars, but the software assumes that you know what you are doing, and you have specified the conversion efficiency.
If you make a recipe that contains both extract and specialty grains, and specify a conversion efficiency, then the software will convert the extract at 100% and the grains at the specified efficiency. Although most homebrewers would consider this to be an extract brew, the software considers it to be a partial mash, as with extract there is no way to specify the efficiency.
The help system in Promash has an entry under the heading "Extract Recipies with steeped grain". It explains that you should select Partial Mash as the brew type and goes on to say that you need to change the efficiency rating to account for steeping grains as opposed to mashing. It suggests that 30% is a good average number for this.
My version of Beersmith (version 1.4) does not give any help on this topic, but you can do this. It will give different results to using Beersmith to develop an extract recipe. If, using Beersmith, you develop the recipe as extract, then it automatically sets the efficiency rating to 15%. (Promash leaves the efficiency rating at whatever it was set to for all grain.)
BCS. explains that the recipes assumes an efficiency rating of 70%, which I know is unreasonable for steeping grains, although it is acceptable for an all grain recipe.
I must admit that I don't know whether the Promash suggestion of 30% or the Beersmith assumption of 15% is more reasonable, but 70% is way out of range.

Hope this helps

-a.
__________________

There are only 10 types of people in this world. Those that understand binary, and those that don't.

ajf is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Reply



Quick Reply
Message:
Options
Thread Tools


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Brewing Classic Styles Glynn General Beer Discussion 20 01-11-2013 08:23 AM
Janets Brown - Beersmith vs Classic Styles Craig311 Recipes/Ingredients 8 07-22-2011 09:09 PM
Anyone own Brewing Classic Styles? StarCityBrewMaster Beginners Beer Brewing Forum 2 06-10-2011 01:55 PM
Brewing Classic Styles SuperiorBrew General Chit Chat 24 02-13-2011 07:42 AM
Brewing classic styles help Bensiff Fermentation & Yeast 2 11-06-2010 04:44 PM



Newest Threads

LATEST SPONSOR DEALS