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Old 12-21-2012, 02:51 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by Schnitzengiggle View Post
Reread your original post. You aren't critiquing, you are complaining about things you apparently don't understand. Stop. Just sayin'.
No, I'm saying I don't think those additions are as useful they could be as if they were used for the full boil or for significantly less than that. I'm fully aware some professional brewers do 45 and 30 minute additions. That doesn't mean I agree with them; in my experience they don't add much flavor or aroma at all and the amount of bitterness you get from them is somewhat variable.

I'm really not sure what's making you so angry about that.

(Also, the comment about your units wasn't meant to be a serious criticism either, it was just a tongue-in-cheek observation. I guess its true you can't see people winking over the internet, but still, your reaction seems unnecessarily aggressive given that my initial post wasn't really confrontational in the first place.)


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Old 12-21-2012, 05:18 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by bobbrews View Post
You'll want more late hops for an 11 gallon batch of 1.069 OG IPA. A 1 oz. whirlpool and 1 oz. dryhop is quite weak. I would maybe quadruple these amounts. Shift all boil Citra/Columbus additions to 10 min, and the boil Belma additions to 20 min. You could move the Cascade at FWH to current 1 oz. dryhop for better results, and then add at least another 3 oz. to the dryhop of whatever you have left.
Quadruple the boil amounts? Really?

I love hops but that seems overly aggressive...according to BS my IBUs are on par with the style, and I have used tons o'hops in the secondary, and in the keg with less than spectaclar results.

I love hops too, but I dunno if 1/2lb per 5 gallons is appropriate.

Please don't get me wrong this is info that I have taken into consideration, but the hops I have need to last at last a couple of brews...at least .


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Old 12-21-2012, 06:04 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by Schnitzengiggle View Post
28.00 g Cascade [5.00 %] - First Wort 60.0 min Hop 5 9.7 IBUs
28.00 g Bravo [14.20 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 6 27.4 IBUs
14.00 g Bravo [14.20 %] - Boil 45.0 min Hop 7 12.3 IBUs
14.00 g Belma [12.10 %] - Boil 30.0 min Hop 8 5.4 IBUs
14.00 g Columbus (Tomahawk) [15.80 %] - Boil 15. Hop 9 4.1 IBUs
14.00 g Belma [12.10 %] - Boil 10.0 min Hop 10 2.1 IBUs
14.00 g Citra [14.88 %] - Boil 10.0 min Hop 11 2.6 IBUs
14.00 g Columbus (Tomahawk) [15.80 %] - Boil 5.0 Hop 12 2.5 IBUs
28.00 g Citra [14.88 %] - Boil 0.0 min Hop 13 0.0 IBUs
28.00 g Citra [14.88 %] - Dry Hop 0.0 Days Hop 16 0.0 IBUs

Thanks in advance!
I would eliminate the fwhs and move them to flameout or dryhopping, use all the bravo at 60 for bittering, use the belma at 15 for the flavoring and eliminate the ctz and leave the rest as is or maybe add to the dry hop schedule
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Old 12-21-2012, 01:24 PM   #14
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Your water profile is fine as is. It is close to Tasty's APA water profile which is 350ppm SO4 & 50 Cl. I won't brew another hoppy beer without a similar sulfate/chloride ratio as it really makes a huge difference.
I'll have to try this technique soon. I have no issue/complaints with my current lower ratio, but I've heard about mabrungard over in the Brew Science forum doing this as well. I usually split my batches, so I'll compare a 150/75 ratio to a 300-ish/50 ratio.
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Old 12-21-2012, 01:32 PM   #15
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I apologize for the amount confusion. Since this will be split into two 5 gallon batches, The DH would be per batch.
I find the best hop character in IPAs/IIPAs with a 0.50 oz. dryhop per gallon of beer (MINIMUM) and a 1.00 oz. dryhop per gallon of beer (MAXIMUM).

However, if you're using loose leaf hops to dryhop, much of the dryhop will float atop the beer and not really penetrate through. So that case would be an exception to eyeball the amount... or you could bag them with a weight.
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Old 12-21-2012, 01:39 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by mooshimanx View Post
No, I'm saying I don't think those additions are as useful they could be as if they were used for the full boil or for significantly less than that. I'm fully aware some professional brewers do 45 and 30 minute additions. That doesn't mean I agree with them; in my experience they don't add much flavor or aroma at all and the amount of bitterness you get from them is somewhat variable.
Early additions like these actually can matter depending on the recipe. Try brewing the Pliny the Elder clone with just 30-50 IBUs at the boil start, and then nothing until 15 minutes left in the boil... You'll have a VASTLY different beer. There are flavor contributions coming from early additions; they are just different. Not so much of a juicy aromatic pop of hop goodness, but more of a subdued complex layering of hop flavors when combined with the late additions. The small bittering followed by tons of hopbursting and huge dryhop method is just one way to brew IPAs. But if someone doesn't want straight up hop juice, then some more consideration for early additions can matter a bit more.
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Old 12-21-2012, 01:49 PM   #17
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Quadruple the boil amounts? Really?

I love hops but that seems overly aggressive...according to BS my IBUs are on par with the style, and I have used tons o'hops in the secondary, and in the keg with less than spectaclar results.
Quadruple the LATE boil amounts. But it's entirely up to you. For a 5 gallon batch of IIPA at the same OG, I typically add 4-6 oz. hops between 20-0 min. It appears that you are only adding 3 oz. hops for an 11 gallon batch between these same time slots.

Your IBUs are on par with style because of your focus on early additions. Even so, you can ignore what is "to style" and add significantly more. Plenty of great Vermont & Cali breweries do this and they are putting out some of the best IIPAs out there. I've also done this many times with excellent results. Don't be afraid of exceeding the recommended amount IBUs for IIPAs on your calculator.

Further proof that you won't have a bitter bomb is that actual total iso-alpha acid solubility in high OG wort tops off at about 90-110 IBUs. The human palate can also not sense more than this amount of IBUs. So whatever your theoretical IBUs read as, is not what you will actually have in the end. And late additions are MUCH smoother than early additions. So as long as your fermentables carry enough weight to support the hop bill, which they do, then you should have no issues with adding more late hops.

According to your gram to oz. conversions, you currently only have 6 oz. boil/flameout hops (2 oz. of which are used early) for 14 gallons of wort from boil start. For the same OG, and 6.5 gallons of wort at boil start, I use about 6-9 oz. total boil/flameout hops (0.75 to 1 oz early). Something to think about.
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Old 12-21-2012, 03:27 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by bobbrews View Post
Quadruple the LATE boil amounts. But it's entirely up to you. For a 5 gallon batch of IIPA at the same OG, I typically add 4-6 oz. hops between 20-0 min. It appears that you are only adding 3 oz. hops for an 11 gallon batch between these same time slots.

Your IBUs are on par with style because of your focus on early additions. Even so, you can ignore what is "to style" and add significantly more. Plenty of great Vermont & Cali breweries do this and they are putting out some of the best IIPAs out there. I've also done this many times with excellent results. Don't be afraid of exceeding the recommended amount IBUs for IIPAs on your calculator.

Further proof that you won't have a bitter bomb is that actual total iso-alpha acid solubility in high OG wort tops off at about 90-110 IBUs. The human palate can also not sense more than this amount of IBUs. So whatever your theoretical IBUs read as, is not what you will actually have in the end. And late additions are MUCH smoother than early additions. So as long as your fermentables carry enough weight to support the hop bill, which they do, then you should have no issues with adding more late hops.

According to your gram to oz. conversions, you currently only have 6 oz. boil/flameout hops (2 oz. of which are used early) for 14 gallons of wort from boil start. For the same OG, and 6.5 gallons of wort at boil start, I use about 6-9 oz. total boil/flameout hops (0.75 to 1 oz early). Something to think about.
Alright, I will up the late additions and DH. FWIW the estimated IBUs are around 70.

Thank you again for your help.
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Old 12-22-2012, 06:24 AM   #19
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Alright here is my finalized recipe:

Style: American IPA
TYPE: All Grain

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Boil Size: 13.81 gal
Post Boil Volume: 12.48 gal
Batch Size (fermenter): 11.00 gal
Bottling Volume: 11.00 gal
Estimated OG: 1.070 SG
Estimated Color: 7.3 SRM
Estimated IBU: 89.8 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 79.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 86.2 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
20 lbs Pale Ale Malt 2-Row (Briess) (3.5 SRM) Grain 1 76.0 %
3 lbs 8.0 oz Maris Otter (Crisp) (4.0 SRM) Grain 2 13.3 %
1 lbs 5.3 oz Munich (Dingemans) (5.5 SRM) Grain 3 5.1 %
1 lbs Caramel/Crystal Malt - 10L (10.0 SRM) Grain 4 3.8 %
8.0 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt - 40L (40.0 SRM) Grain 5 1.9 %
42.00 g Bravo [15.50 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 6 44.8 IBUs
28.00 g Columbus (Tomahawk) [14.00 %] - Boil 60. Hop 7 27.0 IBUs
28.00 g Belma [12.10 %] - Boil 20.0 min Hop 8 7.1 IBUs
28.00 g Citra [12.00 %] - Boil 10.0 min Hop 9 4.2 IBUs
14.00 g Columbus (Tomahawk) [14.00 %] - Boil 10. Hop 10 2.7 IBUs
14.00 g Citra [12.00 %] - Boil 5.0 min Hop 11 1.8 IBUs
14.00 g Columbus (Tomahawk) [14.00 %] - Boil 5.0 Hop 12 2.2 IBUs
28.00 g Citra [12.00 %] - Boil 0.0 min Hop 13 0.0 IBUs
28.00 g Columbus (Tomahawk) [14.00 %] - Boil 0.0 Hop 14 0.0 IBUs


Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Light Body, Batch Sparge
Total Grain Weight: 26 lbs 5.3 oz
----------------------------
Name Description Step Temperat Step Time
Mash In Add 39.61 qt of water at 162.0 F 149.0 F 90 min

Sparge: Batch sparge with 3 steps (Drain mash tun, , 3.55gal, 3.55gal) of 168.0 F water.

I have a total of 8oz of hops in the recipe, and 5.5oz are 20 minutes or less. This provides and IBU/SG of 1.29, and an estimated 89.8 IBUs (Rager).

I haven't included DH schedule in the recipe. I still don't know what I want to do with the Belma. Definitley Citra, Columbus, and what I have left of the Cascades for one of the 5 gallon batches. Maybe only Belma for the other just to see what it does for the aroma? We'll see how they taste after primary.

bobbbrews I know you mentioned that you use 6-9oz in a 6.5 gallon boil, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I also think you mentioned that was for an IIPA.

This recipe is not a double it will be a standard IPA with the gravity toward the upper end of the style. I have researched some of my favorite commercial IPAs and their clone recipes (Stone IPA, Odell IPA, FW Union Jack, Green Flash WCIPA) and looked at their hopping schedules, amounts, times, AA%, varieties and such. I think what I have come up with will produce satisfactory results (fingers crossed).

Thanks for your help, please let me know if you see any major flaws with my schedule (other than of course to quadruple my current amounts ).

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Old 12-22-2012, 05:55 PM   #20
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I would ease back on the IBUs at 60 minutes and either boost the 20 minute addition, or layer the first addition like you originally intended at 30 minutes. Personally, I would late addition and dryhop with Citra & Cascade. Save the Bravo/Columbus for early additions and the Belma for middle additions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Schnitzengiggle View Post
bobbbrews I know you mentioned that you use 6-9oz in a 6.5 gallon boil, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I also think you mentioned that was for an IIPA.
No, 6-9 oz. total hops is for my standard IPAs. Double IPAs have more like 9-14 oz. total hops for a 6.5 gallon boil, including dryhop. The 6-9 oz. for a standard IPA includes the dryhop as well.


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