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-   -   IPA recipe Belma/Citra/Columbus for flavor add. (http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f12/ipa-recipe-belma-citra-columbus-flavor-add-375384/)

Schnitzengiggle 12-20-2012 04:36 AM

IPA recipe Belma/Citra/Columbus for flavor add.
 
Please critique my hopping schedule for the IPA I am brewing Saturday.

It will be a 10 gallon batch. I am splitting it into two 5 gallon batches, and plan to DH primarily with Belma in one and with Citra in the other. I am also going to use two different Yeasts, WLP 001 and WLP 007 (I am still deciding what I want to use as my go to yeast. I like 007 because of the flocculation and I haven't noticed a huge difference in flavor or attenuation between the two.

Here is the recipe:

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Boil Size: 13.81 gal
Post Boil Volume: 12.48 gal
Batch Size (fermenter): 11.00 gal
Bottling Volume: 11.00 gal
Estimated OG: 1.069 SG
Estimated Color: 6.9 SRM
Estimated IBU: 66.2 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 79.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 86.2 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
23 lbs 8.0 oz Pale Ale Malt 2-Row (Briess) (3.5 SRM) Grain 1 89.8 %
1 lbs 5.3 oz Munich (Dingemans) (5.5 SRM) Grain 2 5.1 %
1 lbs Caramel/Crystal Malt - 10L (10.0 SRM) Grain 3 3.8 %
5.3 oz Caramel Malt - 40L (Briess) (40.0 SRM) Grain 4 1.3 %
28.00 g Cascade [5.00 %] - First Wort 60.0 min Hop 5 9.7 IBUs
28.00 g Bravo [14.20 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 6 27.4 IBUs
14.00 g Bravo [14.20 %] - Boil 45.0 min Hop 7 12.3 IBUs
14.00 g Belma [12.10 %] - Boil 30.0 min Hop 8 5.4 IBUs
14.00 g Columbus (Tomahawk) [15.80 %] - Boil 15. Hop 9 4.1 IBUs
14.00 g Belma [12.10 %] - Boil 10.0 min Hop 10 2.1 IBUs
14.00 g Citra [14.88 %] - Boil 10.0 min Hop 11 2.6 IBUs
14.00 g Columbus (Tomahawk) [15.80 %] - Boil 5.0 Hop 12 2.5 IBUs
28.00 g Citra [14.88 %] - Boil 0.0 min Hop 13 0.0 IBUs
1.0 pkg California Ale (White Labs #WLP001) [35. Yeast 14 -
1.0 pkg Dry English Ale (White Labs #WLP007) [35 Yeast 15 -
28.00 g Citra [14.88 %] - Dry Hop 0.0 Days Hop 16 0.0 IBUs


Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Light Body, Batch Sparge
Total Grain Weight: 26 lbs 2.6 oz
----------------------------
Name Description Step Temperat Step Time
Mash In Add 39.36 qt of water at 165.5 F 151.0 F 90 min

Sparge: Batch sparge with 3 steps (Drain mash tun, , 3.57gal, 3.57gal) of 168.0 F water

Here is the water profile:

Ca 112
Mg 18
Na 16
SO4 256
Cl 51
CaCo3 58
Alk 48
RA -43
SO4:Cl 5.0

Any input, constructive critique, or suggestions will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance!

mooshimanx 12-20-2012 05:46 AM

I've never understand what 45 minute and 30 minute additions are supposed to do beyond add an inconsistent amount of bittering. I also don't really like the idea of adding multiple yeasts because you don't have the ability to micro-manage the cell counts so you can obtain inconsistent or unpredictable results based on the cell counts and which strain dominates. This works for White Labs in their Cali Ale Yeast V because they CAN do so, but at home we can't really do that.

Also, as an added pointless "criticism" your hop additions are metric but your water additions are customary US units.

bobbrews 12-20-2012 01:19 PM

I just did a very similar idea, with Belma & Citra included, and two diff. yeasts. If you want that balance of solid performer and high floc., I'd go with WLP090 San Diego Super. Very clean and similar to WLP001, but I've noticed it flocs better. I frequently hit 82-85% attenuation with it.

Recipe looks decent enough; add some corn sugar. I don't use grams to determine hop amounts though so I wish I could be helpful on the hop amounts. I'd probably keep the Belma between 30-15 (or better yet 30-20). I did not particularly care for what Belma offered in an American IPA mostly aromawise. Very fruity, but in a weird way with added spicy grass. Focus on Citra and Columbus late.

I think I saw a similiar post by you in another thread and I commented how a bit of Calcium Chloride might be in order.

Schnitzengiggle 12-20-2012 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobbrews (Post 4701088)
I just did a very similar idea, with Belma & Citra included, and two diff. yeasts. If you want that balance of solid performer and high floc., I'd go with WLP090 San Diego Super. Very clean and similar to WLP001, but I've noticed it flocs better. I frequently hit 82-85% attenuation with it.

Recipe looks decent enough; add some corn sugar. I don't use grams to determine hop amounts though so I wish I could be helpful on the hop amounts. I'd probably keep the Belma between 30-15 (or better yet 30-20). I did not particularly care for what Belma offered in an American IPA mostly aromawise. Very fruity, but in a weird way with added spicy grass. Focus on Citra and Columbus late.

I think I saw a similiar post by you in another thread and I commented how a bit of Calcium Chloride might be in order.

7 grams = .25 oz
14 grams = .50 oz, and so on.

The water profile is basically Mosher's Pale Ale, but with the SO4 scaled back from 350. The SO4:Cl ratio is toward the bitter end of the scale and should help to accentuate bitterness and hop flavor, hopefully.

As for the sugar addition, I am going to mash low, 149 and I'll lose a degree or so over the 90 minute mash, so fermentability should be high enough for the WLP 001 & 007 to attenuate fully, I'd estimate this to finish out around 1012, maybe lower if I bump temps up toward the end. I have my gravity and estimated ABV where I want, and I am a proponent of all malt beers (with the exception of Belgians).

Flocculation is the one gripe I have about WLP001 but I have ferm control, so I can cold crash it before secondary dry hopping, and again after dry hopping. Hopefully that will give ne a nice bright beer. I don't know if your familiar with WLP 007,but it flocs like a rock, and in all honesty I haven't noticed a huge difference in flavor profiles, although I usually ferment toward the lower range of the optimal temp for the yeast, then raise it after the bulk of primary fermentation is complete to grab that extra couple points.

Thanks for the advice on the Belma, I have read a lot of mixed reviews. I haven't opened the bag yet, so I have yet to take a sniff for myself (i need to get some 1/2 gallon ball jars so I can vacuum seal the unused portion)

Out of curiosity, did you use pellet or leaf Belma?

bobbrews 12-20-2012 04:42 PM

Still, the Sulfate to Chloride ratio is quite high. I have no issues with bitterness and I do 2:1 ratio....I rarely exceed 200 ppm on the Sulfate. I've heard others go with 350 ppm Sulfate, but they typically stop at that number. IDK, much of this is a preference thing, but there is a limit.

I used leaf Belma. But it tastes somewhat different in the final beer than it smells directly from the bag. In the beer, it tastes fruity/spicy/grassy... a sort of combo of grassy, spicy Noble hops and fruity American hops. From the bag, Belma smells like a less tropical, weak version of Citra, yet still intriguing with added orange zest/pineapple notes.

You'll want more late hops for an 11 gallon batch of 1.069 OG IPA. A 1 oz. whirlpool and 1 oz. dryhop is quite weak. I would maybe quadruple these amounts. Shift all boil Citra/Columbus additions to 10 min, and the boil Belma additions to 20 min. You could move the Cascade at FWH to current 1 oz. dryhop for better results, and then add at least another 3 oz. to the dryhop of whatever you have left.

Beezer94 12-20-2012 06:08 PM

Your water profile is fine as is. It is close to Tasty's APA water profile which is 350ppm SO4 & 50 Cl. I won't brew another hoppy beer without a similar sulfate/chloride ratio as it really makes a huge difference.

Schnitzengiggle 12-21-2012 01:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobbrews (Post 4701856)
You'll want more late hops for an 11 gallon batch of 1.069 OG IPA. A 1 oz. whirlpool and 1 oz. dryhop is quite weak. I would maybe quadruple these amounts. Shift all boil Citra/Columbus additions to 10 min, and the boil Belma additions to 20 min. You could move the Cascade at FWH to current 1 oz. dryhop for better results, and then add at least another 3 oz. to the dryhop of whatever you have left.

I apologize for the amount confusion. Since this will be split into two 5 gallon batches, The DH would be per batch.

Also the Cascade is well over a year old, and some of it has been in a simple ziplock without a vaccum, the rest maybe 1.5-1.75 oz has been in a vacuum sealed container.

Schnitzengiggle 12-21-2012 02:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mooshimanx (Post 4700670)
I've never understand what 45 minute and 30 minute additions are supposed to do beyond add an inconsistent amount of bittering. I also don't really like the idea of adding multiple yeasts because you don't have the ability to micro-manage the cell counts so you can obtain inconsistent or unpredictable results based on the cell counts and which strain dominates. This works for White Labs in their Cali Ale Yeast V because they CAN do so, but at home we can't really do that.

Also, as an added pointless "criticism" your hop additions are metric but your water additions are customary US units.

Alright, I have to respond to your relatively useless information.

Many craft beers are continuously hopped 30-45 minute additinos offer some bittering and impart some amount of flavor to the beer (probably more bitter from the 45 and some bittering and flavor from the 30 additions)

The multiple yeasts will be split between two batches, not used together in the same fermenter. Reread the post rather than skimming it over and making an assumption and posting useless information that has nothing to do with my original question.

And, for your pointless "criticism", it is just that. What does it matter if hop additions are metric?!?! Anyone with half a brain knows that 3.5g = 1/8 oz, 7g = 1/4oz, 14g = 1/2 oz, 21g = 3/4oz, and 28g = 1 oz. I am calculating by IBUs (IBU:SG)

Next time you think about posting a response (ie. nonsense):
1. think about what the person is asking
2. if you have nothing to contribute
a. go back to #1
b. don't post
3. if you have to say pointless about information you posting, don't post it (see #2)
4. read the original post and the posts that follow to understand the evolution of the conversation so if, and that's a big if, you do have something to contribute (see #1) you can actually provide some constructive feedback.
5. Realize that there are brewers here seeking advice from more knowledgeable brewers, AND that the people you are replying to may have more experience and knowledge than you regardless of the question being asked. (Advice is just that advice, I fail to see any suggestions, advice or constructive criticism anywhere in your post.)
6. Your post pisses me off because you aren't contributing you are complaining.
7. This is my thread. Be creative, suggestive and have something to offer or GTFO!

Thanks for nothing.

Cheers!

mooshimanx 12-21-2012 02:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Schnitzengiggle (Post 4703922)
Alright, I have to respond to your relatively useless information.

Many craft beers are continuously hopped 30-45 minute additinos offer some bittering and impart some amount of flavor to the beer (probably more bitter from the 45 and some bittering and flavor from the 30 additions)

The multiple yeasts will be split between two batches, not used together in the same fermenter. Reread the post rather than skimming it over and making an assumption and posting useless information that has nothing to do with my original question.

And for your pointless "criticism" it is just that. What does it matter if hop additions are metric?!?! Anyone with half a brain knows that 3.5g = 1/8 oz, 7g = 1/4oz, 14g = 1/2 oz, 21g = 3/4oz, and 28g = 1 oz.

Next time you think about posting a response:
1. think about what the person is asking
2. if you have nothing to contribute
a. go back to #1
b. don't post
3. if you have to say pointless about information you posting, don't post it (see #2)
4. read the original post and the posts that follow to understand the evolution of the conversation so whn you do have something to contribute (see #1) you can actually provide some constructive feedback.
5. Realize that there are brewers here seeking advice from more knowledgeable brewers, AND that the people you are replying to may have more experience and knowledge than you regardless of the question being asked. (Advice is just that advice, I fail to see any suggestions, advice or constructive criticism anywhere in your post.)
6. Your post pisses me off because you aren't contributing you are complaining.
7. This is my thread. Be creative, suggestive and have something to offer or GTFO!

Thanks for nothing.

Cheers!

"Please critique my hopping schedule for the IPA I am brewing Saturday." *Gets angry when hopping schedule is criticized.*

I was just saying multiple yeast strains can result in inconsistent results - sure I guess I misread it, but there's no reason to lose your mind over it.

Schnitzengiggle 12-21-2012 02:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mooshimanx (Post 4703930)
"Please critique my hopping schedule for the IPA I am brewing Saturday." *Gets angry when hopping schedule is criticized.*

I was just saying multiple yeast strains can result in inconsistent results - sure I guess I misread it, but there's no reason to lose your mind over it.

Reread your original post. You aren't critiquing, you are complaining about things you apparently don't understand. Stop. Just sayin'.


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