Input requested: true German festbier

This weekend, my wife picked me up two mixed sixers of beer from World Market. One was some favorites - Chimay, Hobgoblin, Duvel. The other was all seasonals - Oktoberfests and pumpkin ales.

One happened to be a Hofbräu Oktoberfest... my life has been changed.

Okay, that may be a little extreme, but still... how on Earth do they pack that much flavor into a beer that looks like Bud Light?

A friend who brews award winning (i.e. NHC) German lagers views this as his "white whale" after having had it in the tents in Germany. Now, I get it.

If you haven't had it, this is a brilliantly clear, light gold beer. Huge fluffy white head, superb lacing. Lightly sweet up front, slight graininess, balanced finish. Light, refreshing mouthfeel.

I'm assuming that I need to go very simple; this beer is viewed by some as just being a beefier Helles. I'm guessing very heavy on pilsner malt, a small amount of either light munich or Vienna, that's it. Possibly a short decoction.

I had great luck with my darker Märzen with WLP820; it gives some residual sweetness, and I think it might be a great fit here. Likely only a single hop (Hallertaur?)... bittering addition, maybe a small late addition.

If you have any relevant feedback, I would love to hear it. Google gives me jack and squat in terms of useful results for recreating this beer.

Thanks!

Pretty much the same as my guesses. From my memory this is on the lighter/drier side of fest beers ( I havent had it this year), you are going to need a quality pils malt. I prefer the floor malted bohemian pils from weyermann, but best malz pils is also very good. 10-20% munich I and vienna, I don't remember a noticeable crystal flavor.

In general for munich lagers, I do a double decoction with an infusion to mash out, aiming for a thick mash (1.2 qt/per lb, it will get thicker due to decoction evaporations.) And aim for a mash ph in the 5.2/5.3 range, getting there by a minimum of additions and using chloride over sulfate. Munich water is rather alkaline, but Ive had better luck using my very soft water, than trying to make munich water. Probably as it is difficult to get calcium carbonate to dissolve.

Many people say there is no difference in doing decoctions, but it makes sense with my set up, to do a step mash. Ill let someone else beat that dead horse.

I find better results, with the floor malted pils, with a rest around 131, it seems to help with a strong break and head retention. Also lets me get in another decoction.

I prefer the ayinger 833 strain, but 820 the 34/70 strain is probably closer to what hofbrau would use.

Thanks for the input. I'm going to play with Beersmith to see what I come up. It is a very light beer - probably no darker than a 5 SRM. I'm wondering if the yeast choice isn't key for making the upfront sweetness that still seems to balance out nicely at the finish.

34/70, wyeast2124, wlp820 are all the same yeast, and pretty much the most common lager yeast used. Theres nothing "special" about that strain (it certainly is good strain) Id lean towards malt quality, and technique, make sure its actually sweetness up front, and not maltiness. Good Luck.

giraffe said:

34/70, wyeast2124, wlp820 are all the same yeast, and pretty much the most common lager yeast used. Theres nothing "special" about that strain (it certainly is good strain) Id lean towards malt quality, and technique, make sure its actually sweetness up front, and not maltiness. Good Luck.

Click to expand...

I think that you may be thinking of WLP830, or may be referring to an incorrect chart. WLP820 is the Oktoberfest/Märzen strain, and is definitely not a super commonly used yeast.

HB is the best. Here's a märzen recipe.

http://www.fermentarium.com/homebrewing/how-to-make-marzen/

Thanks, podz. I've seen that link before. I'm sure that makes a tasty beer, but I don't think that a traditional German brewery is tossing three specialty grains in to get the kind of effect that this beer has.

Understand, I'm usually a fan of complexity in a grain bill - I make a delicious darker Oktoberfest - but I'm afraid that your link will miss my target for this beer by a good margin.

giraffe said:

Pretty much the same as my guesses. From my memory this is on the lighter/drier side of fest beers ( I havent had it this year), you are going to need a quality pils malt. I prefer the floor malted bohemian pils from weyermann, but best malz pils is also very good. 10-20% munich I and vienna, I don't remember a noticeable crystal flavor.

In general for munich lagers, I do a double decoction with an infusion to mash out, aiming for a thick mash (1.2 qt/per lb, it will get thicker due to decoction evaporations.) And aim for a mash ph in the 5.2/5.3 range, getting there by a minimum of additions and using chloride over sulfate. Munich water is rather alkaline, but Ive had better luck using my very soft water, than trying to make munich water. Probably as it is difficult to get calcium carbonate to dissolve.

Many people say there is no difference in doing decoctions, but it makes sense with my set up, to do a step mash. Ill let someone else beat that dead horse.

I find better results, with the floor malted pils, with a rest around 131, it seems to help with a strong break and head retention. Also lets me get in another decoction.

I prefer the ayinger 833 strain, but 820 the 34/70 strain is probably closer to what hofbrau would use.

Click to expand...

There's some seriously great advice in here.

The Brits and Germans make fun of the modern American Oktoberfests ala Sam Adams and call it sticky, sweet orange beer and the Americans make fun of the actual modern Oktoberfests calling them just slightly stronger than normal helles. BUT when you try a REAL Oktoberfest that's fresh it's a fantastic thing; why oh why is it so hard to just find a good modern recipe?

Definitely agree with the advice that you want good quality German malts and you want a mix of Pilsner, Munich and Vienna and AVOID those crystal malts.

I also like the flavor of 820, but seriously there's no yeast that require more time than 820; I'm not sure I'd use it again; it's SOOO diacetyl prone. I had to make a Krausen beer to get rid of the diacetyl last time and I pitched plenty of yeast.


The modern versions you get at the Wiesen are 15-20% Vienna/Munich and 80-85% Pilsner malt.

I like my version to be halfway between a modern "Tent beer" and the American versions, but with NO crystal malts so I use almost 30% Vienna/Munich but I increase the Vienna percentage vs. Munich to keep the color inline.

My recipe is essentially 1/3rd old-school darker Munich festbier and 2/3rd modern Munich festbier (and 0% crystal malt, confused American Oktoberfest). -If you truly want a modern "clone" go with 15-20% Light Munich / Vienna blend and change the blend in your beer calculator to end up at the SRM you are targeting.

I REALLY think some of the intangible magic of the German versions DOES come from the incredibly complex, near impossible to mimick decoction mashing; if you want to go that route start with the undermodified malt as previously recommended.

OG: 1.057
FG: 1.014
IBUs: 27.8
Color: 7 SRM
ABV: 5.65%

90 min boil

Kettle volume preboil: 7.25 gallon
Post boil: 6.25

I make a very large batch size so that I can leave as much trub behind in the kettle as possible; this is important in lager brewing tradition and modern lager brewing practice. I also add a blend of whirlfloc and polyclar to get REALLY bright wort, which just "wastes" more wort to fluffy trub.

Grist:
10 lbs Weyermann Pilsner Malt (regular for infusion, undermodified if decocting) -71.5%
2 lbs Weyermann Munich Type II (8.3L) -14.3%
2 lbs Weyermann Vienna Malt (3.5L) - 14.3%


Hops:
1.7 oz Hallertauer Mittelfruh 4.1% AA -90 min
0.5 oz Hallertauer Mittelfruh 4.1% AA- 30 min



Yeast:
Favorite lager strain
Pitch lots of yeast -pitch cold! (48F)
Let ferment @ 50F for 2 weeks till gravity gets down to 1.020 then start increasing temp -53F for a day then 58F, then 60F for a diacetyl rest.

Perform a "diacetyl force test" to ensure that all diacetyl has been taken up; if not leave on yeast for another week and / or make a "krausen bier" and pitch.

Rack off into keg and cold condition as close to -1 F as possible for 30 days or more.


Water:
I'm a water minimalist and have basically distilled water right out of the tap (Seattle). I add 1 1/2 tsp CACl to the mash and 1/2 tsp CaCL to the boil.

Note: In my experience, German Pilsner Malt can ball up more than any other malt so plan on spending extra time doughing in.

-This beer starts out seeming too hoppy and seems too hoppy until you finally get all the yeast to flocculate out during lagering; then it's just perfection. (IMO)


Adam

Other advice: Do NOT buy the BP "Oktoberfest, Vienna, Marzen" book when looking for information on recipe formulation for these; the recipes are just TERRIBLE by modern standards. (Belgian malts and crystal malt recommendations everywhere, as an example.) 2/3rds of the book talks about Vienna lager and only 1/3 on Oktoberfest / Marzen.

Kai Troester had some great posts on the subject here: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/wiki/index.php/Märzen

But after looking at some actual examples, I feel that Kai tried to merge traditional Oktoberfest (Marzen) and the modern American recipies under the "marzen" umbrella. -Crystal malt doesn't belong in these beers and was just a compromise that George Fix made because US home brewers at the time couldn't get ahold of real german-made Munich and Vienna malts.

Personally I break the "family" out into 4 sub-styles based upon actual recipes:


Vienna- OG 11-13 Plato, focuses on Vienna malt; can be brewed with 50% Weyermann light Munich and 50% Pilsner or 100% authentic Vienna malt (slightly hoppier than Marzen/Oktoberfest)

Marzen- He's using this to mean "Traditional Oktoberfest". Simple malt bill blending Munich, German Pilsner malt, and Vienna malts. OG: 13 - 14 Plato. Less attenuated and darker colored than the modern Oktoberfest beers. 33% Munich (Dark (9 SRM) or Light Munich (6 L) depending upon how dark and malty you want it) 66% Pilsner malt. May use even a 33%, 33%, 33% split between vienna, oktoberfest, and pilsner malt.

American Oktoberfest- Complex malt bill, sweeter, more hops, usually includes caramel malts. Orangy sweet. Gordon Biersch's version is 80% Pilsner, 15% Dark Munich and 5% Crystal malts; Sam Adams' version includes 20% various crystal malts! Jeeze! Carapils to aid head retention and mouth feel and a bit of melanoidin to emulate decoction. -You can also check out Jamil's version and the versions detailed in Designing Great Beers for examples. -sometimes includes hop additions later than 30 min and may even use American varieties or German varieties grown in the US.

Modern German Oktoberfest aka "Tent Bier" aka "Weisen":
This is basically a German Helles with a bit of Munich malt added. 80-85% German Pilsner malt, 15-20% Weyermann Dark Munich malt. -No hop additions later than 30 minutes and STICK WITH THE GERMAN VARIETIES GROWN IN GERMANY!

Another post from Kai on the subject: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f12/oktoberfest-style-beer-53340/#post538225


Adam

homebrewdad said:

Thanks, podz. I've seen that link before. I'm sure that makes a tasty beer, but I don't think that a traditional German brewery is tossing three specialty grains in to get the kind of effect that this beer has.

Understand, I'm usually a fan of complexity in a grain bill - I make a delicious darker Oktoberfest - but I'm afraid that your link will miss my target for this beer by a good margin.

Click to expand...

EXACTLY!
Homebrewdad, love what you're trying to do here; love that you and Giraffe truly seem to care about brewing with a view to the "German method". There's just too dang much Beer Imperialism going on on these days and the propagation of recipes, methods and ideologies that are just not in alignment with the local tradition. -YES, you can make a fine Oktoberfest-inspired beer with caramel malts, and american hops and speedy lager fermentation schedules, but it's NOT going to be like the Oktoberfest beers you actually get at Oktoberfest in Munich.

It's not 1998 any more, we actually have access to authentic ingredients now we don't need 1998-inspired "Oktoberfest" recipes!
(These Ofest recipes remind me of the ape-**** crazy Kellerbier recipes on here that include "oak chip tea" as an ingredient because some American traveled to Germany and saw kegs wrapped in wood and assumed the beer actually touched the wood and had wood flavors imparted.) *Sigh* </end rant>





Adam

Giraffe, I see a lot of discussions that those are not truly identical yeasts. You might use 34/70 instead, but WLP820 is a different animal. 34/70 seems to be pretty widely loved, but WLP820 can be finicky, slow to start, leave lots of diacetyl if you aren't careful... and also leaves a delicious soft maltiness that you don't get from a lot of lager yeasts.

Biertourist/Adam, we're on the same page. Again, I love my American style Oktoberfest; I feel like it is an absolutely delicious beer, but you'll notice that my grain bill is 88% base malts (munich, pilsner, Vienna) - 4% melanoiden, 4% caramunich, 4% carapils, a tiny bit of carafa III for color. Even though it's American overall, I'm a firm believer in using appropriate ingredients to fit a beer style - you'll never see my drop cascade in an English brown, for instance.

To me, the tent beer is a completely different style (we're again on the same page) - glad to see the BJCP taking the same stance. To do one right, I think it needs to be simple in composition, complex in process.

I'll definitely use weyermann pils for the lion's share of the grain; I'm considering a blend of their light and dark munich to make up the rest, though I wonder if I'm overthinking it and should just shoot for one.

Playing around in Beersmith, I came up with the following:

&#8226;10 lbs pils (83.3%)
&#8226;2 lbs munich (16.7%)
&#8226;1 oz hallertauer @ 60 min
&#8226;1 oz hallertauer @ 30 min
&#8226;WLP820

Batch size: 5.5 gallons
Efficiency: 74%
OG 1.060
FG 1.012
ABV 6.3% (which is what the bottle claims)
SRM 5.1
IBU 25.3 (ratio .422) - may need to drop this a hair

I did bump up the attenuation for the WLP820 based off of my own experience with it; Beersmith wanted to set the FG higher, but last time around, I killed it with this yeast.

Treat my water to reduce the bicarb as much as possible, minimize the sulfate, emphasize the chloride and the calcium.

Decoction mash according to the following schedule:
&#8226;Acid rest @ 105
&#8226;Sacc rest @ 144
&#8226;Sacc rest @ 152
&#8226;Mash out @ 168

Though if the weyermann malts are undermodified, I'll need to stick a protein rest in there @ 122 or so (maybe a hair warmer).

Huge starter. Ferment @ 52 F (or maybe even 50, which is technically below the optimal temp). D-rest, then lager @ 33 F for 8-12 weeks.

I know that some successful brewers push the "fast lager" method, but using kolsch yeast and borderline ale temps just offends my sensibilities. Maybe the suffering of waiting four months makes it taste better?


Also - thanks for the links, I'll have to read them. I view Troester with something approaching hero worship.

Great stuff guys. I LOVE the various interpretations of marzen/festbier/Vienna. You might think you're making the same basic beer, but not so.

One question though: with regard to fermentation temp, are you using the temp INSIDE the fermenter? 34/70 says 53F is optimal, but is that ambient temp? I have an ambient temp in the middle 40s right now to account for what's going on inside. I need fermometer tape...

Just my 2 cents....here quickly....you can TRY a decoction mash.

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Decoction_Mashing

Kai has some amazing stuff on his site. he also posts a video doing a triple decot...and yeah, no thank you! but, he wins awards!

You can try using Melanoidin malt. One of the things that makes those decoction mashes so nice is they produce melanoidin's, which make a beer really malty and add a rich, deep color. But, they also make a malt to simulate that (kinda)

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f13/decoction-vs-melanoidin-malt-345844/

That is a great forum post, on here, where someone did a SI w/o melanoidin, SI w/melanoidin and decoction mash. Interesting results. I would suggest trying melanoidin malt to get what you're looking for


Side note...

Funny, BJCP has recently acknowledged the differences between american oktoberfest and the more modern "festbier" as well as the traditional Marzen beer.

http://www.bjcp.org/docs/NHC2014-styles.pdf

homebrewdad said:

Biertourist/Adam, we're on the same page. Again, I love my American style Oktoberfest; I feel like it is an absolutely delicious beer, but you'll notice that my grain bill is 88% base malts (munich, pilsner, Vienna) - 4% melanoiden, 4% caramunich, 4% carapils, a tiny bit of carafa III for color. Even though it's American overall, I'm a firm believer in using appropriate ingredients to fit a beer style - you'll never see my drop cascade in an English brown, for instance.

Click to expand...

Some how I missed this reply of yours to this thread all this time.

Love it. Your recipe is barely Americanized, to be fair. 4% Melanoidin, 4%CaraMunich (I REALLY like where you went here, so technically it's still Munich; seems a more authentic Munichy taste rather than normal crystal malt), and a small 4% addition of Carapils (although I don't understand this one because the head retention will be awesome on this one even without the carapils).

The 20% Crystal malt monstrocity that is the Sam Adams Oktoberfest is American yours seems to have German heritage with a light dusting of American elements.

Obviously it's the crazy crystal monstrocities or "Oktoberfests" made with 2 row and pale ale base malts, or Kolsh / even California Ale yeasts that drive me batty.


Adam

1971hemicuda said:

Just my 2 cents....here quickly....you can TRY a decoction mash.

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Decoction_Mashing

Kai has some amazing stuff on his site. he also posts a video doing a triple decot...and yeah, no thank you! but, he wins awards!

You can try using Melanoidin malt. One of the things that makes those decoction mashes so nice is they produce melanoidin's, which make a beer really malty and add a rich, deep color. But, they also make a malt to simulate that (kinda)

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f13/decoction-vs-melanoidin-malt-345844/

That is a great forum post, on here, where someone did a SI w/o melanoidin, SI w/melanoidin and decoction mash. Interesting results. I would suggest trying melanoidin malt to get what you're looking for


Side note...

Funny, BJCP has recently acknowledged the differences between american oktoberfest and the more modern "festbier" as well as the traditional Marzen beer.

http://www.bjcp.org/docs/NHC2014-styles.pdf

Click to expand...

I really like how the new (draft) BJCP guidelines break everything down, especially among the marzen/vienna/ofest/fest biers. Really makes everything easy to brew on your own with the ingredient breakdowns they do.

Just made this again; I just love this beer too much. Lagered for 2 weeks in conical @ 30F and transferred to 2 corney kegs also held at 30F.

This time I made nearly the same beer but with almost all Best Malz products instead of Weyermann. It's way more intensely grainy as that Best Malz Pilsen malt is grainy for quite a while.

66.7% Best Pilsen Malt
9.5% Best Munich (6L)
9.5% Best Dark Munich (10L) -"dark" is a relative term here
14.3% Weyermann Vienna (bought a whole bag)

Mixed equal portions of Spalter and Hallertauer Mittelfruh with 60 min and 20 min additions to get to 26 IBUs

OG: 1.058
FG: 1.015 (estimated- I ended up hitting 1.014 in reality)

SRM: 5.88 -rapidly getting into Helles range on color with the Best Munich malts.


Pitched Cold (48F)- fermented at 50F for 10 days (HUGE lager yeast repitch) then started bumping up slowly to 62F for a 3 1/2 day diacetyl rest (not that this beer should need it), then back slowly down to 30F for lagering for 2 weeks. Fined with biofine and gelatin @ 30F as the yeast is REALLY low flocculating.

Will continue to lager in corney kegs for at least another month. Beer is still quite grainy at this point, just like the Czech Pils made with this base malt and yeast. When the beer finally drops 100% clear it's a thing of beauty but this yeast has been taking at least 4 weeks and generally up to 6 to drop fully.


Adam

I was craving for a nice, fresh golden lager to brew and even though I may be a tad too late for Oktoberfest, I figured I'd go ahead and make a Festbier. When I was checking the interwebz for a good recipe, it was pretty frustrating to find mostly American-style Märzen recipes, until I found this thread. So based on what I found here I put together a quick recipe in Beersmith.

2 things:
- my fermentation temp control options are limited, so I use W34/70 dry yeast at ~17 deg Celsius (worked for my Czech dark lager)
- I don't want to go through the trouble of doing decoctions, but I don't mind doing a step mash to try and get some of that German malty goodness.

How does this look? Would appreciate you guys' more experienced input

Boil Time: 60 min
Efficiency: 72,00 %

83,3 % Floor-Malted Bohemian Pilsner (Weyermann) 2,500 kg (3,3 EBC)
8,3 % Munich (20,0 EBC) 0,250 kg
8,3 % Vienna (8,0 EBC) 0,250 kg
15,00 g Hallertauer [4,80 %] - Boil 60,0 min 14,3 IBUs
10,00 g Hallertauer [4,80 %] - Boil 30,0 min 7,3 IBUs
1,0 pkg Saflager Lager (DCL/Fermentis #W-34/70) [50,28 ml]

Est Original Gravity: 1,056 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1,015 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 5,5 %
Bitterness: 21,6 IBUs
Est Color: 8,7 EBC


Regarding a step mash; what I've seen a lot is two sacch rest steps (140–145 °F / 60–63 °C and 155–162 °F / 68–72 °C) before a mash out. Any reason doing a protein rest (131–137 °F / 55–58 °C) would be advisable for a festbier? I've see different takes on that in various threads.

Thanks!

Has anybody tried going the other way and adding 2oz of Caramunich to an all-Pilsner grist?

Excellent thread. Especially the clarification on fixes book.

I was in Bamberg recently and had trouble matching some beers to styles.

Do any of you folks know where a amber lager or just plain lager fits in the style guidlines ?They where listed separately to helles and marzens

This thread is perfectly timed, even if it has been resurrected from the dead, and I've been looking for a discussion on this!

I don't actually like modern Marzen (American Oktoberfest) beers, they are way too sweet for me. I had Hofbrau Oktoberfest relatively fresh once at an Oktoberfest celebration here in the state's and it blew my mind.

So a few notes I've put together on homebrewing German lagers:

I do a decoction mash out. You get the effect of boiling the grain and don't add any extra time to your brew day. Just pull the decoction at 40 minutes and add it back in at 60 to mash out.

As far as recipe goes, I agree this should be simple: 60% pilsner, 25%vienna, 10% Munich, 5% melanoiden.

For the yeast I've found that the WLP833 Bock lager preserves that bright grainy flavor we are all looking for best, I use it almost exclusively in all my German lagers and I ferment at 50F for ~10 days before beginning to ramp for D rest. Then I chill to 50F, fine with gelatin, and lager for 2-3 weeks at 35F.

As far as hops go, I use Hallertau and Tettnang, and I've found that hop additions at first wort, 30, 15, and 5 give a more rounded hop flavor.

I know it's become homebrew wisdom that 30 minute hop additions are a waste of hops but I think spreading them out across the boil adds a special roundness to the hop flavor and aroma. It may be mental on my part, and I only do this on lighter beers, but it really seems to do something for me.

I intend to brew this recipe next, so I'll report back with results!

brewuuhu said:

I was craving for a nice, fresh golden lager to brew and even though I may be a tad too late for Oktoberfest, I figured I'd go ahead and make a Festbier. When I was checking the interwebz for a good recipe, it was pretty frustrating to find mostly American-style Märzen recipes, until I found this thread. So based on what I found here I put together a quick recipe in Beersmith.

2 things:
- my fermentation temp control options are limited, so I use W34/70 dry yeast at ~17 deg Celsius (worked for my Czech dark lager)
- I don't want to go through the trouble of doing decoctions, but I don't mind doing a step mash to try and get some of that German malty goodness.

How does this look? Would appreciate you guys' more experienced input

Boil Time: 60 min
Efficiency: 72,00 %

83,3 % Floor-Malted Bohemian Pilsner (Weyermann) 2,500 kg (3,3 EBC)
8,3 % Munich (20,0 EBC) 0,250 kg
8,3 % Vienna (8,0 EBC) 0,250 kg
15,00 g Hallertauer [4,80 %] - Boil 60,0 min 14,3 IBUs
10,00 g Hallertauer [4,80 %] - Boil 30,0 min 7,3 IBUs
1,0 pkg Saflager Lager (DCL/Fermentis #W-34/70) [50,28 ml]

Est Original Gravity: 1,056 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1,015 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 5,5 %
Bitterness: 21,6 IBUs
Est Color: 8,7 EBC


Regarding a step mash; what I've seen a lot is two sacch rest steps (140–145 °F / 60–63 °C and 155–162 °F / 68–72 °C) before a mash out. Any reason doing a protein rest (131–137 °F / 55–58 °C) would be advisable for a festbier? I've see different takes on that in various threads.

Thanks!

Click to expand...

So one note on the step mashing... I don't think you'll get the same results as a decoction. I really firmly believe that the "magic" of decoction mashing is due to the fact that you're boiling grain, and you simply can't get that any other way. It releases a small amount of tannins, creates some complex oxidative reactions, and generates melanoidins. Melanoidin malt will get you close, that's why I advocate adding it, in addition to a single decoction for the boiling effect. I've have great luck doing it this way but YMMV

JKaranka said:

Has anybody tried going the other way and adding 2oz of Caramunich to an all-Pilsner grist?

Click to expand...

I haven't. Personally I find it mighty interesting to see that people can get the same results with a very simple grist of basically just pilsner malt (with maybe some Vienna/Munich).
I did manage to make a great Belgian quad with once again mostly just pale ale malt and only a pinch of cara, and rather focus on mashing process and yeast handling.

TheMadKing said:

This thread is perfectly timed, even if it has been resurrected from the dead, and I've been looking for a discussion on this!

I don't actually like modern Marzen (American Oktoberfest) beers, they are way too sweet for me. I had Hofbrau Oktoberfest relatively fresh once at an Oktoberfest celebration here in the state's and it blew my mind.

So a few notes I've put together on homebrewing German lagers:

I do a decoction mash out. You get the effect of boiling the grain and don't add any extra time to your brew day. Just pull the decoction at 40 minutes and add it back in at 60 to mash out.

As far as recipe goes, I agree this should be simple: 60% pilsner, 25%vienna, 10% Munich, 5% melanoiden.

For the yeast I've found that the WLP833 Bock lager preserves that bright grainy flavor we are all looking for best, I use it almost exclusively in all my German lagers and I ferment at 50F for ~10 days before beginning to ramp for D rest. Then I chill to 50F, fine with gelatin, and lager for 2-3 weeks at 35F.

As far as hops go, I use Hallertau and Tettnang, and I've found that hop additions at first wort, 30, 15, and 5 give a more rounded hop flavor.

I know it's become homebrew wisdom that 30 minute hop additions are a waste of hops but I think spreading them out across the boil adds a special roundness to the hop flavor and aroma. It may be mental on my part, and I only do this on lighter beers, but it really seems to do something for me.

I intend to brew this recipe next, so I'll report back with results!

Click to expand...

Please let us know how it goes, I'd be interested!

I'll definitely be using Hallertau, and might give the spread out hop additions a try; I've seen it elsewhere too and a rounded hop flavor is fairly important for this beerstyle.

TheMadKing said:

So one note on the step mashing... I don't think you'll get the same results as a decoction. I really firmly believe that the "magic" of decoction mashing is due to the fact that you're boiling grain, and you simply can't get that any other way. It releases a small amount of tannins, creates some complex oxidative reactions, and generates melanoidins. Melanoidin malt will get you close, that's why I advocate adding it, in addition to a single decoction for the boiling effect. I've have great luck doing it this way but YMMV

Click to expand...

I'm not gonna revive the 'decoction yes or no' discussion here, but I'll ask you this: is there any point in doing a step mash without doing a decoction? Or might I as well just go for a single infusion mash then?

Also I'd be interested in your mash schedule; you say you just do one decoction afther the sacch rest, into the mash-out? And you still add melanoiden malt even you do a decoction?

Cheers!

brewuuhu said:

I'm not gonna revive the 'decoction yes or no' discussion here, but I'll ask you this: is there any point in doing a step mash without doing a decoction? Or might I as well just go for a single infusion mash then?

Also I'd be interested in your mash schedule; you say you just do one decoction afther the sacch rest, into the mash-out? And you still add melanoiden malt even you do a decoction?

Cheers!

Click to expand...

I would think the only point to doing a step mash like that would be to help with undermodified malts and improve conversion. If all you're going for is the maillard reactions than my mash schedule accomplishes that.

My mash schedule is:

-Full volume mash w/ ~8 gallons of striker water
-Mash in at ~158 for a ~151 sacc rest (temps depend on recipe)
-stir every 20 minutes
-at the 40 minute mark, pull a decoction of ~1/3 of the mash (exact volume doesn't matter, but at least 1/3rd, and make sure you get a good chunk of the grist)
-Bring the decoction to a boil as quickly as possible and boil for 5-20 minutes depending on recipe (longer boil = more maillard)
-add the decoction back to the main mash to bring the overall mash temp up to 170F or so
-Lauter as normal

Since I'm only doing a single decoction, my reasoning is that I'm not getting the extent of melanoidins that a triple decoction would achieve, so I add melanoidin malt to the grist to supplement the decoction.

It may be snake oil honestly, but it's worked for me and it's fun for me, so I don't mind the little extra work. I've been very happy with my pilsner and my doppelbock made via this method.

I'm brewing my "FestBier" on friday. I think according to this thread it's closest to a tent beer actually but here's my exact recipe:

5.3 gallon batch
8.3 gallons of strike water (you lose more water than usual during a decoction boil)
151 mash temp
60 minute mash w/ decoction pulled at 40 minutes and returned to the main mash at 60 minutes for a mash out

6lbs pilsen
3lbs vienna
1lb munich 10L
0.5 lb melanoidin

0.5oz Hallertau first wort hops
0.5oz hallertau 30 minutes
0.5oz hallertau 15 minutes
1.5oz hallertau 5 minutes

60 minute boil

WLP833 fermented at 50F for 10 days, ramp to D-rest, fine with gelatin, cold crash for 2 days, rack to the keg then lager for 2-3 weeks under CO2

I am going to brew something similar this weekend, but using Tettnang instead of Hallertau. Do you have enough experience with both to comment on the difference?

MerlinWerks said:

I am going to brew something similar this weekend, but using Tettnang instead of Hallertau. Do you have enough experience with both to comment on the difference?

Click to expand...

I've only used Tettnang a few times, so honestly no not really. My only note is that I prefer Hallertau and it has a "crisper" bitterness to me, but they are pretty similar "spicy" noble hops.

I found this thread a month or two ago after tasting HB's Oktoberfestbier for the first time. Almost necro'd it just to say "Woo-hoo". I wouldn't say the beer was "life changing", but I think it's my favorite beer now. I used to like American Oktoberfests, but now they taste too sweet. I should buy another case at Costco before it disappears...

This winter I'm going to try brewing something close myself; I am planning to use 97% continental pilsner malt (Belgian, because I have it already) and 3% aromatic malt. Magnum or Sterling hops for bittering, just a little Mt Hood at 20 minutes for finishing, and 34/70 yeast.

I think y'all using all German malts and hops and maybe doing decoctions is awesome and I can't wait to hear how they turn out.

This months issue of Beer and Brewing had an article on Festbiers. I BIAB and ferment in corny kegs so you might have to adjust the volumes a bit.

This is the recipe from the article:

Recipe: Festbier Lager
Brewer: Ray Smith
TYPE: All Grain


Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Boil Size: 7.07 gal
Post Boil Volume: 5.47 gal
Batch Size (fermenter): 5.00 gal
Bottling Volume: 4.50 gal
Estimated OG: 1.058 SG
Estimated Color: 2.5 SRM
Estimated IBU: 30.1 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 70.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 73.5 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name Type # %/IBU

11 lbs Pilsen Malt 2-Row (Briess) (1.0 SRM) Grain 2 97.8 %
4.0 oz Carapils (Briess) (1.5 SRM) Grain 3 2.2 %
0.80 oz Perle [8.00 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 4 24.5 IBUs
0.28 tsp Irish Moss (Boil 10.0 mins) Fining 5 -
1.00 oz Hallertauer Mittelfrueh [4.00 %] - Boil Hop 6 5.6 IBUs

1.0 pkg Munich Lager (Wyeast Labs #2308) [124.21 Yeast 9 -


Mash Schedule: BIAB Large Electric Kettle
Total Grain Weight: 11 lbs 4.0 oz
----------------------------
Name Description Step Temperat Step Time
Mash Step Add 31.89 qt of water at 155.0 F 149.0 F 30 min
Mash Step Add -0.00 qt of water and heat to 162.0 F 162.0 F 30 min

Sparge: If steeping, remove grains, and prepare to boil wort
Notes:
------
I added the carapils to increase the head and head retention for this beer.
Lagers I need larger starters.



Pitch at 46 degrees and let free rise to 50 degrees. ferment for 10 days and then raise temp to 60 degrees for 3 days for diacetyl rest, then lager.

I know fixes book is out of date but he does make some good points about stressing quality of ingredients and how speciality Malts typically are made from low quality barley.

Movarian malt isn't available (at least in the UK) and the best I can find is floor malted Bo pils by weyermann. Weyermans Vienna malt is either from basic pilsner malt or barke malt.

However weyermann do produce a dark bo pilsner malt. It's not widely available but it's flavour profile and colour 5-8L look spot in for the original Vienna malt produced in Dreher's time. By this I mean they match Vienna malt flavour profile but are made from high quality base malt.

In fact weyermann list it as a historic malt.

Has anybody ever used this malt? I am thinking of maybe a Vienna or marzen with this as a base malt supported by some munch or maybe some carahell.

It's difficult to track down so if someone has used it and can feedback that would be great.

Queequeg said:

I know fixes book is out of date but he does make some good points about stressing quality of ingredients and how speciality Malts typically are made from low quality barley.

Movarian malt isn't available (at least in the UK) and the best I can find is floor malted Bo pils by weyermann. Weyermans Vienna malt is either from basic pilsner malt or barke malt.

However weyermann do produce a dark bo pilsner malt. It's not widely available but it's flavour profile and colour 5-8L look spot in for the original Vienna malt produced in Dreher's time. By this I mean they match Vienna malt flavour profile but are made from high quality base malt.

In fact weyermann list it as a historic malt.

Has anybody ever used this malt? I am thinking of maybe a Vienna or marzen with this as a base malt supported by some munch or maybe some carahell.

It's difficult to track down so if someone has used it and can feedback that would be great.

Click to expand...

I always try to use the best malts available to me, but I wasn't aware of the differences in Vienna malts etc.
I have used the dark Bohemian malt from Weyermann, but I think it's a shade darker than other Vienna malts. I used it in a dark Czech lager with a bunch of other malts (Carafa most prominently) and it ended up with quite a bit more roasted flavor than I would've liked. So can't really say much about the Bohemian Floor-malted Dark Malt from that one experience.

Currently mashing the recipe I posted earlier, going to do a single decoction mash out here shortly

TheMadKing said:

I had Hofbrau Oktoberfest relatively fresh once at an Oktoberfest celebration here in the state's and it blew my mind.

Click to expand...

z-bob said:

I found this thread a month or two ago after tasting HB's Oktoberfestbier for the first time. Almost necro'd it just to say "Woo-hoo". I wouldn't say the beer was "life changing", but I think it's my favorite beer now.

Click to expand...

If the goal is to make something similar to the modern beers that are served nowadays in the tents in Munich, you guys are barking up the wrong tree with the decoctions and all that. Decoction mashing may have been commonplace 100 years ago, but the beers back then tasted nothing like the beers made today.

Modern, commercial breweries in Germany of course emphasize all of the things that we normally consider to be "good brewing practice", like healthy fermentation and minimizing oxygen exposure post-fermentation as far as possible. But they also emphasize several additional quality control standards that don't get talked about as much by homebrewers:

1) Very, very low oxygen exposure throughout the hot side of the process. This includes removing the dissolved oxygen that is already in the brewing water, because it's already oxygen saturated coming from your pipes - something that most homebrewers who have tested HSA unfortunately overlooked. Completely separate from the development of the "cardboard" flavor that people usually cite, low amounts of HSA (as in the amount of HSA caused by the initial dissolved oxygen load of the brewing water as it arrives from your faucet) result in a "dulling" of the malt flavors that are a central part of the German lager flavor.

2) Minimal exposure of the wort to excessive heat. This is measured via something called the thiobarbituric acid index (TBI). The wort is like a prime steak, in the sense that you want to cook it to a perfect medium rare. Undercooked isn't good (DMS, failure to achieve good protein break, etc.), and overcooked isn't good (formation of reductones and cooking-out the "fresh grain" malt flavors). If you're evaporating more than about 8-10% of your wort volume during the boil, or noticing a large color difference between pre-boil and post-boil wort, then you have a problem.

3) Very pure brewing water, free from contaminants like metals leeched from piping (iron and copper) or poorly passivated equipment. You need to get rid of these sources of metals, because once they're in the wort/beer, they catalyze the formation of free radicals (read up on Fenton's reagent) that rapidly destroy the "fresh" grain and hop flavors characteristic of German lagers, including festbier.

There are other unique things that they do, like using soured wort to adjust mash pH (instead of technical acids), but the above 3 points are the most important factors that most people are unaware of.

Look into the LoDO/low oxygen brewing stuff if you are serious about making a "true German festbier".

There are plenty of American craft breweries who are following the historic/traditional methods. If you do the same, your beer will probably end up tasting like theirs. Ask yourself: have you ever had an American craft brewed lager that tasted like the Hofbrau Oktoberfest?

If you want to brew something that tastes like the modern German lagers, then you need to try to replicate the process that they are actually using nowadays, instead of what they did 100 years ago.

techbrau said:

If the goal is to make something similar to the modern beers that are served nowadays in the tents in Munich, you guys are barking up the wrong tree with the decoctions and all that. Decoction mashing may have been commonplace 100 years ago, but the beers back then tasted nothing like the beers made today.

Modern, commercial breweries in Germany of course emphasize all of the things that we normally consider to be "good brewing practice", like healthy fermentation and minimizing oxygen exposure post-fermentation as far as possible. But they also emphasize several additional quality control standards that don't get talked about as much by homebrewers:

1) Very, very low oxygen exposure throughout the hot side of the process. This includes removing the dissolved oxygen that is already in the brewing water, because it's already oxygen saturated coming from your pipes - something that most homebrewers who have tested HSA unfortunately overlooked. Completely separate from the development of the "cardboard" flavor that people usually cite, low amounts of HSA (as in the amount of HSA caused by the initial dissolved oxygen load of the brewing water as it arrives from your faucet) result in a "dulling" of the malt flavors that are a central part of the German lager flavor.

2) Minimal exposure of the wort to excessive heat. This is measured via something called the thiobarbituric acid index (TBI). The wort is like a prime steak, in the sense that you want to cook it to a perfect medium rare. Undercooked isn't good (DMS, failure to achieve good protein break, etc.), and overcooked isn't good (formation of reductones and cooking-out the "fresh grain" malt flavors). If you're evaporating more than about 8-10% of your wort volume during the boil, or noticing a large color difference between pre-boil and post-boil wort, then you have a problem.

3) Very pure brewing water, free from contaminants like metals leeched from piping (iron and copper) or poorly passivated equipment. You need to get rid of these sources of metals, because once they're in the wort/beer, they catalyze the formation of free radicals (read up on Fenton's reagent) that rapidly destroy the "fresh" grain and hop flavors characteristic of German lagers, including festbier.

There are other unique things that they do, like using soured wort to adjust mash pH (instead of technical acids), but the above 3 points are the most important factors that most people are unaware of.

Look into the LoDO/low oxygen brewing stuff if you are serious about making a "true German festbier".

There are plenty of American craft breweries who are following the historic/traditional methods. If you do the same, your beer will probably end up tasting like theirs. Ask yourself: have you ever had an American craft brewed lager that tasted like the Hofbrau Oktoberfest?

If you want to brew something that tastes like the modern German lagers, then you need to try to replicate the process that they are actually using nowadays, instead of what they did 100 years ago.

Click to expand...

Your tone is condescending, just fyi.

Can you cite a single source for any of this please?

And yes I have had an American craft beer that tasted like the Hofbrau festbier. Pfram family pilsner and helles. They use decoction mashing, I asked.

A number of German breweries still use decoction mashing as well.

Let me ask you something. If I made a tasty beer that you liked, and I lied and told you it was LODO, would you be able to tell I was lying? Or would the power of suggestion make you believe the beer was better?

My money is on the latter. I've had "lodo" homebrew. It didn't do anything magical for me. I'm 90% sure its just placebo effect.

TheMadKing said:

Your tone is condescending, just fyi.

Click to expand...

Pot, meet kettle.

TheMadKing said:

Can you cite a single source for any of this please?

Click to expand...

You can go get the degree at Weihenstephan or VLB and learn all of this. Or you can read the textbooks they use on your own. This one has an English translation:
https://www.vlb-berlin.org/en/technology-brewing-and-malting

TheMadKing said:

And yes I have had an American craft beer that tasted like the Hofbrau festbier. Pfram family pilsner and helles. They use decoction mashing, I asked.

Click to expand...

Then I encourage you to keep doing what you're doing.

TheMadKing said:

Let me ask you something. If I made a tasty beer that you liked, and I lied and told you it was LODO, would you be able to tell I was lying? Or would the power of suggestion make you believe the beer was better?

Click to expand...

If you made a beer I liked, I wouldn't care how you brewed it.

I don't intend to spark yet another LoDO debate in this thread, nor do I hope to convince you of anything. So let's avoid getting this thread shut down.

My goal is to present a different point of view for any 3rd party reading this thread, in the hopes that it might be helpful to them if they have gone down the decoction rabbit hole in search of authentic flavors, but ended up disappointed in their own results. I spent YEARS stuck in that rut, and LoDO got me out of it. I am only trying to help other people who are in a similar situation.

If you're happy with the results you currently get, then keep doing what you're doing

techbrau said:

Far less so than yours.


You can go get the degree at Weihenstephan or VLB and learn all of this. Or you can read the textbooks they use on your own. This one has an English translation:
https://www.vlb-berlin.org/en/technology-brewing-and-malting


Then I encourage you to keep doing what you're doing.


If you made a beer I liked, I wouldn't care how you brewed it.

I don't intend to spark yet another LoDO debate in this thread, nor do I hope to convince you of anything. My only intention was to present a different point of view for any 3rd party reading this thread, in the hopes that it might be helpful to anybody who has gone down the decoction rabbit hole in search of authentic flavors, but been disappointed in their own results.

If you're happy with the results you currently get, then keep doing what you're doing

Click to expand...

My tone is a direct response to yours.

I have read that book cover to cover and have a copy of it. Kanz never advocates eliminating O2 from the water pre-mash. He actually states that oxygen is necessary in the mash and the boil to form some of the hop compounds necessary for flavor and stability. I suggest you reread the hop section.

I agree that reducing oxygen exposure post-boil to a higher degree than most homebrew setups allow is probably beneficial for hop compound stability.

I haven't yet adopted closed transfers or pressurized fermentation, but I have higher upgrade priorities and am still happy with my beer.

If you aren't trying to convince anyone of anything, then I would respectfully recommend not leading off your post by stating that we are all wrong and using archaic methods that are no longer relevant.

OK, not to jump into this, just to say, I had Kunze and it kills me I sold it. Amazon's lowest is $400 and Siebel is at $299, so great to know VLB has it at $175 USD.

OK, out, gents. Thanks for the info.

TheMadKing said:

I have read that book cover to cover and have a copy of it. Kanz never advocates eliminating O2 from the water pre-mash. He actually states that oxygen is necessary in the mash and the boil to form some of the hop compounds necessary for flavor and stability. I suggest you reread the hop section.

Click to expand...

One of the many, many times that he reiterates it. Read the last bullet point of Section 3.2.1.10:

http://www.********************/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/14707009_793172557492013_4235761715164806976_o.jpg

For anybody who might think that this is only a "big brewery" problem that doesn't matter at "home-brew scale", the reality is that oxygen ingress at home-brew scale is many times higher than at commercial scale due to the larger surface area to volume ratio of a home-brew system:



The arrow marked "20 l" points to a 20 liter, home-brew sized system. You can see that from 100 hl (~85 bbl) and larger, the surface area to volume ratio is less than 1/10 as much as a home-brew system, getting close to 1/20 for 500 hl systems. This means home-brew systems experience more than 10-20x as much oxygen exposure as a commercial system under normal conditions.

techbrau said:

One of the many, many times that he reiterates it. Read the last bullet point of Section 3.2.1.10:

http://www.********************/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/14707009_793172557492013_4235761715164806976_o.jpg

Click to expand...

Was just re-reading it myself, and you're right I forgot about that. But the reason you're trying to remove oxygen in the first place is because of the way industrial sized breweries have to handle their grain post milling. 3.2.1.6 explains it well:

In summary, the oxygen reduction is only necessary to prevent the oxidation of long chain fatty acids by lipoxygenases which are formed when mashing in below 60C (necessary to achieve maximum yield per pound of malt which we don't really care about).

The milled grains are also undergoing LOX activity from the moment of milling. In an industrial brewery, the time between milling and complete mashing in may be an hour or more as it passes through sifters and conveyers, which would lead to big problems without CO2 or N2 purges.

At the homebrew scale, our milling time is minutes, our mashing-in time is seconds, our mash-in temperature is usually closer to 70C (mine is anyway). So there's less need to reduce oxygen in the mash water since the LOX is destroyed at these higher temperatures.

So it may be beneficial to mill your grain immediately before mashing in (which I also do anyway), or possibly store your milled grain in a CO2 purged container.

TheMadKing said:

But the reason you're trying to remove oxygen in the first place is because of the way industrial sized breweries have to handle their grain post milling. 3.2.1.6 explains it well:

In summary, the oxygen reduction is only necessary to prevent the oxidation of long chain fatty acids by lipoxygenases which are formed when mashing in below 60C (necessary to achieve maximum yield per pound of malt which we don't really care about).

The milled grains are also undergoing LOX activity from the moment of milling. In an industrial brewery, the time between milling and complete mashing in may be an hour or more as it passes through sifters and conveyers, which would lead to big problems without CO2 or N2 purges.

At the homebrew scale, our milling time is minutes, our mashing-in time is seconds, our mash-in temperature is usually closer to 70C (mine is anyway). So there's less need to reduce oxygen in the mash water since the LOX is destroyed at these higher temperatures.

Click to expand...

You might want to re-read the entire mashing chapter, paying close attention to the many times that he discusses the deleterious effects of oxygen on wort, especially on phenolic compounds from the malt. LOX is of minor concern next to peroxidase, polyphenol oxidase, superoxide dismutase, and metal-catalyzed formation of superoxide radicals.