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Old 02-24-2009, 11:17 PM   #1
SGT-RIEL
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I just created this recipe on the recipator and was wanting to get some input as this will be my first all grain brew. Just want to know if it all seems ok and any advice on the process would be useful.


Beer: The Dunk Style: Dunkelweizen
Type: All grain Size: 5.25 gallons
Color: 57 HCU (~24 SRM)
Bitterness: 20 IBU
OG: 1.066 FG: 1.014
Alcohol: 6.7% v/v (5.3% w/w)

Grain:
3 lb. 0 oz. American 2-row
8 lb. 0 oz. Wheat malt
2 lb. 0 oz. American Munich
.50 lb. Dextrine malt (Cara-Pils)
.37 lb. American chocolate
.25 lb. American black patent

Mash: 65% efficiency
Boil: 75minutes SG 1.063

5 oz. Corn sugar
Hops:
1 oz. Saaz (3.75% AA, 60 min.)
.5 oz. Cascade (6% AA, 30 min.)

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Old 02-25-2009, 12:20 PM   #2
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Look pretty good!

Two things I would change: Nix the black patent and CaraPils. In the first case, you really don't want those flavors in Dunkelweizen. In the second, if you're using that much wheat, no way in hell do you need CaraPils. I know there are people who swear by it, and add some to everything they brew; those people are, quite simply, mistaken.

I presume you're going to use a Weizen yeast? If so, I recommend Wyeast 3056 fermented on the cool side, say 68F. Just don't ferment too warm and turn it into banana-flavored bubblegum.

Prost!

Bob

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Old 02-25-2009, 12:37 PM   #3
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+1 on the Carapils and you might think of adding a little vienna. I would get rid of the Cascade hop addition as well. All you really want with the hops in this style is balance not flavor. And with the yeast I agree with NQ3X but would lower the temp even further to 63 or 64F for the first 5 days at least.

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Old 02-25-2009, 02:41 PM   #4
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I think the recipe looks fine (especially with NQ3X's modifications), but I would not recommend this be someone's first all-grain experience.

The problem is that you've got lots of new things to do when all grain brewing that are more complex than anything you've done to date, even if you've done a lot of partial mashes. (It's more complex just because of the extra volume of everything you're dealing with.)

The specific difficulty here is that wheat beers are a bit more complex than all-malt barley beers. You've got an increased chance of a difficult sparge. You've got a less enzyme rich environment for mashing than with malt barley beers. Now, in all likelihood these things may not cause any problems, but they certainly boost the chance of problems.

So if it were me, I'd do something without much wheat for my first all grain brew. After a couple of all grain beers everything will be easier & then brew up that dunkelweizen.

Get others' opinions though. I just may be overcautious.

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Old 02-25-2009, 05:31 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkling View Post
The specific difficulty here is that wheat beers are a bit more complex than all-malt barley beers. You've got an increased chance of a difficult sparge. You've got a less enzyme rich environment for mashing than with malt barley beers. Now, in all likelihood these things may not cause any problems, but they certainly boost the chance of problems.
I'm going to take issue with these statements.

First, a grist with 50% husked grain should present no problem to efficient lautering, even when fly-sparging. I've never had lautering difficulties until I exceeded 60% un-husked grain in the grist. The key is the already-admirable practice of sufficiently mixing the grist during dough-in: if you mix it right, you won't have to worry about sticking the sparge.

Second, inclusion of wheat malt in the grist presents no reduction in enzymatic power. In fact, most wheat malts are actually stronger in diastatic power than base barley malts. See Briess's analyses for 2-row pale and wheat malts, respectively (PDFs): 2-row clocks in at 140°Lintner, while White Wheat is 160°L. An examination of malt analyses from other maltsters will show the same result.

Just sayin'.

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Old 02-25-2009, 06:43 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NQ3X View Post
I'm going to take issue with these statements.

First, a grist with 50% husked grain should present no problem to efficient lautering, even when fly-sparging. I've never had lautering difficulties until I exceeded 60% un-husked grain in the grist. The key is the already-admirable practice of sufficiently mixing the grist during dough-in: if you mix it right, you won't have to worry about sticking the sparge.

Second, inclusion of wheat malt in the grist presents no reduction in enzymatic power. In fact, most wheat malts are actually stronger in diastatic power than base barley malts. See Briess's analyses for 2-row pale and wheat malts, respectively (PDFs): 2-row clocks in at 140°Lintner, while White Wheat is 160°L. An examination of malt analyses from other maltsters will show the same result.

Just sayin'.

Bob
Hey Bob!

I'm perfectly happy to stand corrected on the enzymatic power issue!

For the sparging issue though he is proposing using 57% wheat (8 lbs out of a shade over 14 lbs grain). And while it is a kind of evidence that you, a very experienced brewer, have never had problems with this, many others have had difficulties (which is also evidence based on more data points). And these difficulties are almost assuredly associated with experience -- the more experience you have, the less likely you are to have difficulty. (Which is why you haven't had problems, I presume.)

The problem is this is a first batch of beer with a 14 lb grain bill (which is more than I personally would recommend for a first timer) and a lot of wheat. Which means he's not as experienced as you are.

So I absolutely agree with you that people brew beers with this kind of grain bill successfully all the time, but I also think it is more likely to be a nonoptimal brewing experience. Given that we all want new all-grain brewers to learn, succeed, and have fun, I personally would recommend a smaller grain bill with less wheat.
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Old 02-25-2009, 06:54 PM   #7
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I believe most people generally account for the complexities of wheat with rice hulls and lower efficiencies and 65% seems plenty low to me.

I just noticed the Black Patent. I would definitely get rid of that and if you really want it just add an ounce.

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Old 02-25-2009, 06:57 PM   #8
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I would also say ditch the black patent and the carapils. The cascade finishing hop is also a strange choice. Traditionally, dunkelweizens don't use any finishing hops and I find they are better without them. You just want the bitterness to create some balance, that's it.

My yeast recommendation would be WLP380...less banana than the other weizen yeasts and perfect for dunkelweizens.

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Old 02-25-2009, 07:01 PM   #9
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As for concerns about using wheat...I don't ever use rice hulls and I haven't had a problem for a long time. I generally use 60-70% wheat in my hefeweizens.

Hell, even when I did experience problems with run-off, I was experiencing it with barley or wheat.

A wheat beer is also almost guaranteed to be great. You can't go wrong with a simple dunkelweizen...I've never made a bad one.

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Old 02-25-2009, 08:10 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkling View Post
Hey Bob!

I'm perfectly happy to stand corrected on the enzymatic power issue!

For the sparging issue though he is proposing using 57% wheat (8 lbs out of a shade over 14 lbs grain). And while it is a kind of evidence that you, a very experienced brewer, have never had problems with this, many others have had difficulties (which is also evidence based on more data points). And these difficulties are almost assuredly associated with experience -- the more experience you have, the less likely you are to have difficulty. (Which is why you haven't had problems, I presume.)

The problem is this is a first batch of beer with a 14 lb grain bill (which is more than I personally would recommend for a first timer) and a lot of wheat. Which means he's not as experienced as you are.

So I absolutely agree with you that people brew beers with this kind of grain bill successfully all the time, but I also think it is more likely to be a nonoptimal brewing experience. Given that we all want new all-grain brewers to learn, succeed, and have fun, I personally would recommend a smaller grain bill with less wheat.
That's a perfectly understandable and acceptable stand to take. I hadn't really considered the n00b angle of it, had I?

I still maintain that good mixing will prevent the mash sticking, and if you're batch sparging there's not a reason on earth to expect a stuck mash. :P

Bob
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