Wayne, thank you for the quick response. What you said makes sense but I was not intending to make an Oktoberfest, specifically. Only to try out carared in a Vienna lager that I have made before to see what it does to the beer. I had put my numbers into beersmith, I just thought that carared might not follow a malts traditional SRM qualities. I ended up putting only 2 lbs of carared in the mash because I was more worried about making to sweet of a lager for my tastes. If I do not get the red color I am looking for, that is the lesser of two evils compared to cloying. I may post a few pics of the finished beer so other brewers can get an idea of what carared does to the color.