Ss Brewing Technologies Giveaway!

Home Brew Forums > Home Brewing Beer > Recipes/Ingredients > Hoppy Wheat or Hoppy Wit?
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 05-26-2011, 01:21 AM   #11
dirty_martini
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 319
Liked 6 Times on 6 Posts

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob
I shall now make a grand, sweeping pronouncement. You have been warned.

Late hops in Witbier = Blech. Hops are not part of the spice profile of Witbier. Period. Coriander, bitter orange peel, perhaps paradise seed; these are what I expect to find. Not hops. Dieu du Ciel only ever brewed the above-referenced beer once, in 2009. Let the tropical citrus come from where it's supposed to come from - bitter Curaçao orange peel.

If you must brew a hop bomb - and really? Why? Just brew a refreshing wheat beer to style and call it a day - carpet-bomb an American Wheat.

That's my two cents!

Bob
Lucky for me I'm not trying to brew a Belgian witbier or a hop bomb. I love what late addition hops can add in flavor without overwhelming. I dont want big bitterness. What I'm looking to do is add my own personal twist on an old style. That's all.

I believe in subtlety, not hit you in your face flavors. I think the addition of the hops at the end will simply add another layer of flavor. Not make it a hop bomb by any means.
__________________
dirty_martini is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 05-26-2011, 07:31 AM   #12
Bob
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Christiansted, St Croix, USVI, US Virgin Islands
Posts: 3,921
Liked 127 Times on 95 Posts
Likes Given: 36

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dirty_martini View Post
Lucky for me I'm not trying to brew a Belgian witbier or a hop bomb. I love what late addition hops can add in flavor without overwhelming. I dont want big bitterness. What I'm looking to do is add my own personal twist on an old style. That's all.

I believe in subtlety, not hit you in your face flavors. I think the addition of the hops at the end will simply add another layer of flavor. Not make it a hop bomb by any means.
Wait, what?

I refer you, sir, to your original post, in which you wrote:

Quote:
The thing is, I cant decide whether I should go hoppy wheat ala Gumballhead or Hop Sun, or whether I should make a true Belgian Style Witbier, only with a big late hop addition for flavor.
I recognize West Coasters have a different idea of what constitutes a hop bomb. To me, adding flavor/aroma hops in the manner which you describe to styles which aren't supposed to have any - in amounts which I advise in styles like ESB - constitutes brewing a hop bomb.

But that's semantics. Practically speaking, if you think 2 ounces of a hops variety with as pronounced a flavor as Citra is "subtle", I think you think the word means something it does not mean. In either case, such an excessive addition won't "add another layer of flavor"; it will dominate all other flavors to the point of obliteration (unless of course you go completely over the top with those flavors, too, at which point I start asking you about arms races).

Really, dude, situations and styles do exist where it's not a good idea to simply chuck some more hops in the kettle. This is one of them. One of a master brewer's characteristics is restraint.

Cheers,

Bob
__________________

Brewmaster
Fort Christian Brewpub
St Croix, US Virgin Islands

Bob is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 05-26-2011, 08:06 AM   #13
dirty_martini
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 319
Liked 6 Times on 6 Posts

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob

Wait, what?

I refer you, sir, to your original post, in which you wrote:

I recognize West Coasters have a different idea of what constitutes a hop bomb. To me, adding flavor/aroma hops in the manner which you describe to styles which aren't supposed to have any - in amounts which I advise in styles like ESB - constitutes brewing a hop bomb.

But that's semantics. Practically speaking, if you think 2 ounces of a hops variety with as pronounced a flavor as Citra is "subtle", I think you think the word means something it does not mean. In either case, such an excessive addition won't "add another layer of flavor"; it will dominate all other flavors to the point of obliteration (unless of course you go completely over the top with those flavors, too, at which point I start asking you about arms races).

Really, dude, situations and styles do exist where it's not a good idea to simply chuck some more hops in the kettle. This is one of them. One of a master brewer's characteristics is restraint.

Cheers,

Bob
Ok, you caught me in my original post. It was really meant to give a base on the stylist difference that the beer would be based on. But it didn't mean that it had to be "to style".

As for your hop bomb comment, I don't believe adding a hop component to a beer makes it a hop bomb. Hops are just another component on beer. I hate hearing that styles aren't meant to be messed with. If that was the case, the world would have a lot less options for beer. Somebody had to try something different at some point, otherwise there would only be one style if beer.

My inspiration for this beer is the Belgian beers that set being made with American hops. Bruery mischief, captain Lawrence xtra gold, Belgian IPAs, etc. I don't particularly like the Belgian IPAs as the bitterness doesn't blend well with the yeast. However, the Belgian styles that used a late hop addition with low bitterness turned out nicely.

Now like you said, 2nd of citra might overwhelm. If you saw some of my previous posts, I actually asked about that. I only thought of that big of an addition because I was not dry hopping, and some aroma would be scrubbed during fermentation. I was thinking of cutting back to an oz, so the coriander, orange peel, and hops would maybe blend better.

But if you think that I shouldn't do it because of style guidelines, you're just talking to the wrong person. I don't believe in being restricted to guidelines because winning ribbons is of no interest to me. Brewing interesting beers is more important. And if it doesn't work, chalk it up to experience.
__________________
dirty_martini is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 05-26-2011, 12:58 PM   #14
dcp27
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Medford, MA
Posts: 4,076
Liked 118 Times on 114 Posts
Likes Given: 3

Default

when I did my american wheat, I didn't think what I did (2.5oz 5mins or less) was too much. some judges did tho and said it overwhelmed the rest.... ok it kinda did, but I wanted hops and subtle wheat.

__________________
dcp27 is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 05-26-2011, 02:33 PM   #15
Bob
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Christiansted, St Croix, USVI, US Virgin Islands
Posts: 3,921
Liked 127 Times on 95 Posts
Likes Given: 36

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dirty_martini View Post
I hate hearing that styles aren't meant to be messed with. If that was the case, the world would have a lot less options for beer. Somebody had to try something different at some point, otherwise there would only be one style if beer.
While that's kind of what I'm saying, it's only part. The other, larger part has nothing to do with American Wheat - you can brew an American Wheat IIPA, and I encourage you to do so - but more to do with how ingredients play with/off one another in a complex beer like Witbier.

Really, I'm not saying styles aren't meant to be messed with. More on that later, though.

Quote:
My inspiration for this beer is the Belgian beers that set being made with American hops. Bruery mischief, captain Lawrence xtra gold, Belgian IPAs, etc. I don't particularly like the Belgian IPAs as the bitterness doesn't blend well with the yeast. However, the Belgian styles that used a late hop addition with low bitterness turned out nicely.
There are many Belgian ales made with American hops. Frankly, my palate likes none of them, and that plays an important role in my opinion of them. More importantly, though, is this: None of the beers referenced above have spices. None of them are wheat beers. They're simply malt, sugar, hops, water and yeast; they're all pale ales (Tripel is pale and it's an ale ). They don't have the added layers of complexity provided by wheat (malted and unmalted), oats (possibly), lactic acid and brewing spices.

Quote:
Now like you said, 2nd of citra might overwhelm. If you saw some of my previous posts, I actually asked about that. I only thought of that big of an addition because I was not dry hopping, and some aroma would be scrubbed during fermentation. I was thinking of cutting back to an oz, so the coriander, orange peel, and hops would maybe blend better.
There's where you and I differ. When I put spices in a beer, I want the spices to shine. In a spiced Belgian-style ale, I want to show off two flavors: Spices and yeast esters. Hops just get in the way of that.*

See, if too many things are going on in the beer, it's not "complex"; it's confusing. When you mix a few flavors, it's relatively simple to achieve a synergy or balance. You're talking about mixing a whole gamut of flavors. It's hard enough to brew a good Witbier. Master that first, then see where adding your late hops gets you.

Think of flavors like paint colors. Mix yellow and blue, you get green. Vary the proportions, you get varying shades of green. Add in a bit of red, and you get a quite different hue that's still recognizably green. Now add all the colors in your paint box. What do you end up with? A kind of grayish-brown that doesn't look like anything nice. The same thing happens when you start throwing too many flavors into a beer (or food). Instead of a broad spectrum of flavors, you end up with muddy, gray "blah".

Quote:
But if you think that I shouldn't do it because of style guidelines, you're just talking to the wrong person. I don't believe in being restricted to guidelines because winning ribbons is of no interest to me. Brewing interesting beers is more important. And if it doesn't work, chalk it up to experience.
It ain't about ribbons. In fact, like etiquette, beer style isn't about you.
It's not about restricting you or cramping your creative vision or any other of that drivel. It's about other people. It's about respecting other people and their expectations.

More accurately, I'm worried about what you call the beer when you hand it to the drinker. If you serve me your late-hopped Belgian-style spiced wheat beer and call it a Witbier, I'm not going to be impressed with your creativity and thinking-outside-the-boxness; I'm going to think you don't know how to brew a good Witbier. Subconsciously, I'm going to think you misled me.

I think you could brew a far more interesting Witbier by varying the spices other than hops. Sure, you need a certain amount of hops, coriander and bitter orange peel. But there are other spices than hops which blend really well with the de rigeur spices. Paradise seed. Lemongrass. Lemon balm. Rosemary. Star anise. White pepper. Bay leaf. Cloves. Ginger. All these and more have been used in Witbier.

If you get creative with spices other than hops, you'll still have something discernibly Witbier which is also much more interesting than your run-of-the-mill Hoegaarden.

Now, it's true I've been scratching my head about this trend to hop the sh!t out of everything I've been seeing for the past decade. I find it disturbing, not innovative. There are some places extra hops simply don't belong. Just like there are some places garam masala or red chili powder or sugar don't belong. You wouldn't dump Tabasco sauce on Frosted Flakes; Frosted Flakes only taste "right" with milk on 'em, right?

It's more disturbing when perfectly good beers go by the wayside because the beer geeks can't train their two remaining taste buds to appreciate anything that doesn't have 100 IBU or excessive finishing hops. The first brewery for which I made wort let a half-dozen different outstanding beers lapse out of the portfolio because people couldn't get enough of the beer which we first made as a joke (we added 4 times the finishing and dry hops to a cask of our American IPA). We lost our ESB, APA, all the way up to and including the American IPA the over-hopped beer was based on.

I'm to the point I don't even go to my local homebrew club's meetings anymore. Out of the dozens of brewers who attend, there might be one decent Brown Ale or ESB out of dozens of Raspberry Imperial Gose or some other crazy-huge, barely drinkable junk. Trouble is, half these guys can't really brew their way out of a paper bag unless it's some humongous batsh!t recipe. Ask 'em to brew a Pale Mild and they'd fail. Utterly.

Don't get me wrong, now; there are times I enjoy an Imperial Stout or big IPA or Belgian-style Quadruppel or funky, Brett-y whatsit. But for most occasions, give me a session ale or Witbier. Hell, even American Wheat! The damned shame is that stuff is rare in the craft scene, at least around here, because people are too busy brewing big beers with names like "Thermonuclear HopBCM".

Cheers,

Bob

* And before you go there, no, hops are not just another spice.
__________________

Brewmaster
Fort Christian Brewpub
St Croix, US Virgin Islands

Bob is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 05-28-2011, 06:35 AM   #16
dirty_martini
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 319
Liked 6 Times on 6 Posts

Default

Quote:
There are many Belgian ales made with American hops. Frankly, my palate likes none of them, and that plays an important role in my opinion of them. More importantly, though, is this: None of the beers referenced above have spices. None of them are wheat beers. They're simply malt, sugar, hops, water and yeast; they're all pale ales (Tripel is pale and it's an ale ). They don't have the added layers of complexity provided by wheat (malted and unmalted), oats (possibly), lactic acid and brewing spices.
This is where you and I differ. I enjoy belgian styles utilizing american hops...as long as it isnt made to be like an IPA. I like the citrus quality of american hops playing off the yeast qualities as long as it isnt overdone. One shouldnt overwhelm the other.

Quote:
There's where you and I differ. When I put spices in a beer, I want the spices to shine. In a spiced Belgian-style ale, I want to show off two flavors: Spices and yeast esters. Hops just get in the way of that.*

See, if too many things are going on in the beer, it's not "complex"; it's confusing. When you mix a few flavors, it's relatively simple to achieve a synergy or balance. You're talking about mixing a whole gamut of flavors. It's hard enough to brew a good Witbier. Master that first, then see where adding your late hops gets you.

Think of flavors like paint colors. Mix yellow and blue, you get green. Vary the proportions, you get varying shades of green. Add in a bit of red, and you get a quite different hue that's still recognizably green. Now add all the colors in your paint box. What do you end up with? A kind of grayish-brown that doesn't look like anything nice. The same thing happens when you start throwing too many flavors into a beer (or food). Instead of a broad spectrum of flavors, you end up with muddy, gray "blah".
I agree with you. Too many people overdo the ingredients and muddle the flavors. I understand that you like the let the spices shine. For me, I see them as playing off of one another. I see the lemony notes of the coriander, the orange notes from the zest, and the citrus/fruit notes from the hops working off of one another...no different than using a blend of hops or spices. Why can only spices work with spices or hops with hops? Just because Im using coriander and orange zest, it doesnt mean I can only use grains of paradise, lemongrass, etc.

Quote:
More accurately, I'm worried about what you call the beer when you hand it to the drinker. If you serve me your late-hopped Belgian-style spiced wheat beer and call it a Witbier, I'm not going to be impressed with your creativity and thinking-outside-the-boxness; I'm going to think you don't know how to brew a good Witbier. Subconsciously, I'm going to think you misled me.

It's more disturbing when perfectly good beers go by the wayside because the beer geeks can't train their two remaining taste buds to appreciate anything that doesn't have 100 IBU or excessive finishing hops. The first brewery for which I made wort let a half-dozen different outstanding beers lapse out of the portfolio because people couldn't get enough of the beer which we first made as a joke (we added 4 times the finishing and dry hops to a cask of our American IPA). We lost our ESB, APA, all the way up to and including the American IPA the over-hopped beer was based on.

I'm to the point I don't even go to my local homebrew club's meetings anymore. Out of the dozens of brewers who attend, there might be one decent Brown Ale or ESB out of dozens of Raspberry Imperial Gose or some other crazy-huge, barely drinkable junk. Trouble is, half these guys can't really brew their way out of a paper bag unless it's some humongous batsh!t recipe. Ask 'em to brew a Pale Mild and they'd fail. Utterly.
Heres where you and I agree to an extent. I find a lot of homebrewers at my old club made horrible beer in general...especially the experiments. For me, hops are the flavor characteristic I like to play around with in many of my beers, but that doesnt mean Im overdoing it. In many ways, I treat them like spices. I have brewed plenty of witbiers that have turned out nicely along with berliners and goses (not really into hefes). I know how to brew a solid wheat beer. I just want to play around with it a little. Im not the most traditional brewer. My style is to take standard styles and make them uniquely mine. Dont worry though...if I tweak the recipe, I dont try to play it off as what the base style was. I wouldnt call this a witbier to someone trying it. I would just call it my version of a wheat beer. Something utilizing a little from the belgian character with a west coast twist. Oh, and I tend to brew more sessionable beers. Im trying to do the reverse...un-imperialize styles.

I have the foundation for brewing standard styles...I just like thinking a little outside the box. I tend to brew 2.5gal batches as "pilot batches", but if I post the recipe I go for 5gal since thats easiest to comprehend.

For the record, its chilling right now. I did use the citra in a late addition, but I did back it off to 1oz along with .5oz of fresh orange zest and .5oz of crushed coriander. Heres to hoping it turns out like I hope. And if not...I can say I at least tried.
__________________
dirty_martini is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 06-15-2011, 01:21 AM   #17
NuclearRich
Feedback Score: 8 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Hamden, CT
Posts: 1,041
Liked 98 Times on 81 Posts
Likes Given: 37

Default

Outstanding internet arguing.
No, really, I've found a lot of the points enlightening.

While I tend to not be on the side of the OP, I still find a few points valid and interesting. The side I support brings intelligent arguement against what they consider a bad idea. Bravo, its not easy to be so forthcoming yet unoffensive in an e-fight. Surely some feelings have been hurt, but both sides did well showing restraint.

As the presiding judge of this battle, I declare me the winner. Thanks for the thoughtful debate, guys.

Ok, so how's the beer so far?

__________________

Kegged - Amber (homegrown hops)
Bottled - 30th birthday barleywine, caramel gingerbread quad, doppelbock dunkel, Mulberry wit, Caramel Quad/RUMCAKE, porter, Blueberry Blonde, Amber, Single Hop Pale Ale (exp 4190), A Conan Selfie
Primary - Lambic!, IPA

Cogito Ergo Doleo

"rdwhahb"

Quote:
Originally Posted by somedudefromguam View Post
I thought that meant people were getting frustrated with their brews. Like- OH NO my beer is infected RHWAHAHRBLABLE!!!! OR- My beer pours all foamy RDWHAHBLARABBLE
NuclearRich is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 06-15-2011, 03:59 AM   #18
dirty_martini
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 319
Liked 6 Times on 6 Posts

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by NuclearRich
Outstanding internet arguing.
No, really, I've found a lot of the points enlightening.

While I tend to not be on the side of the OP, I still find a few points valid and interesting. The side I support brings intelligent arguement against what they consider a bad idea. Bravo, its not easy to be so forthcoming yet unoffensive in an e-fight. Surely some feelings have been hurt, but both sides did well showing restraint.

As the presiding judge of this battle, I declare me the winner. Thanks for the thoughtful debate, guys.

Ok, so how's the beer so far?
I disagree with the majority of homebrewers since I don't particularly brew to style because I'm trying to create my own unique niche as far as my brewing style. That said, no reason to get heated when we disagree.

As for the beer, it's tasty but it has no real hop flavor, even with the late addition of citra. The orange peel and coriander are the dominant flavors. I'm half tempted to drop a small dry hop in to get some of that aroma there, but not so much it hides the other aromatics. As it stands right now, it's a fantastic witbier, but not what I was aiming for.
__________________
dirty_martini is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 06-15-2011, 12:48 PM   #19
NuclearRich
Feedback Score: 8 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Hamden, CT
Posts: 1,041
Liked 98 Times on 81 Posts
Likes Given: 37

Default

Hey, if you aren't trying to be the best withing the margins of a guideline, then why care about the guideline? If you want to make something that you enjoy personally, then have at it!
It may be that the hop flavor of Citra isn't quite what you are looking for out of this beer. Standard NW hops have that distinctive grapefruity grassy flavor, and I think Citra may be more subtle in those flavors with a more fruity bouquet. I have also heard that too much Citra can be very dominating, so be careful with the dry hop.

__________________

Kegged - Amber (homegrown hops)
Bottled - 30th birthday barleywine, caramel gingerbread quad, doppelbock dunkel, Mulberry wit, Caramel Quad/RUMCAKE, porter, Blueberry Blonde, Amber, Single Hop Pale Ale (exp 4190), A Conan Selfie
Primary - Lambic!, IPA

Cogito Ergo Doleo

"rdwhahb"

Quote:
Originally Posted by somedudefromguam View Post
I thought that meant people were getting frustrated with their brews. Like- OH NO my beer is infected RHWAHAHRBLABLE!!!! OR- My beer pours all foamy RDWHAHBLARABBLE
NuclearRich is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 06-16-2011, 07:55 AM   #20
dirty_martini
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 319
Liked 6 Times on 6 Posts

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by NuclearRich View Post
Hey, if you aren't trying to be the best withing the margins of a guideline, then why care about the guideline? If you want to make something that you enjoy personally, then have at it!
It may be that the hop flavor of Citra isn't quite what you are looking for out of this beer. Standard NW hops have that distinctive grapefruity grassy flavor, and I think Citra may be more subtle in those flavors with a more fruity bouquet. I have also heard that too much Citra can be very dominating, so be careful with the dry hop.
Believe me, I dont care about the guideline as far as winning medals and such. I respect the guideline as a baseline for the beer style, but allows me to tweak to my own tastes.

For the record, I take back my initial thoughts. I tasted it again since chilling the keg and the hop character is there, and its subtle like I wanted. I wouldnt have minded more tropical fruit notes from the hops coming out, but the flavor thats there is a nice compliment to the orange peel and coriander. Subtlety isnt a bad thing. Ill be curious to see how the beer tastes once its carbonated.
__________________
dirty_martini is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Reply



Quick Reply
Message:
Options
Thread Tools


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Anybody made a hoppy wheat? kanzimonson Recipes/Ingredients 8 04-26-2010 11:21 PM
Hoppy Wheat recipe bgburdman9 Recipes/Ingredients 5 03-22-2010 05:16 PM
A Hoppy Amber Wheat? Hawgbranch Recipes/Ingredients 0 05-28-2009 12:26 AM
Hoppy Honey Wheat- Tell what you think?? Big "A" Recipes/Ingredients 2 05-01-2008 09:43 PM
Too Hoppy Wheat? SkewedBrewing Recipes/Ingredients 3 03-05-2006 08:18 PM