Spike Brewing 12.5 Conical Fermenter Giveaway - Enter Now!

Home Brew Forums > Home Brewing Beer > Recipes/Ingredients > Hop Balance

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 04-29-2013, 03:46 PM   #1
IPAFAN1
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Cleveland/Elyria, Ohio
Posts: 14
Likes Given: 4

Default Hop Balance

Just bottled the Octane, and can't stand to see an empty carboy, so here goes. Pulled a recipe from Beersmith, extract with steeping grains, for an 5 gal IIPA called Hellbender. Then went to Northern for all the ingredients. A couple of substitutions, such as Candi Syrup instead of corn syrup, and a slight variation on the Caramel, but my real interest is in the hop schedule. Since they're out of Amarillo, I grabbed some high-alpha Warrior, Mosaic and Simcoe, in addition to the Cascade.
Seems logical to me to use the Warrior at 60 for the bitter, then move through the Cascade, Mosaic and half the Simcoe on a continuous schedule. I've been pretty eager to try a late addition Simcoe, so I definately want to reserve half of it for the last 5 min.
So anyway, enough rambling. The question of this post is, are there more specific, but general hop addition practices based on the different characteristics of various hops, other than the typical "bitter early, aroma late" practice. Or would anyone change what I have planned?

__________________

PRIMARY 1: Empty
PRIMARY 2: Empty
BOTTLED: Modified Hellbender IIPA
BOTTLED: Christmas Ale
ON DECK: Nosferatu clone
On DECK: Hops, Hops, and more Hops

IPAFAN1 is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 04-30-2013, 06:08 PM   #2
IPAFAN1
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Cleveland/Elyria, Ohio
Posts: 14
Likes Given: 4

Default

Did some research and came up with a Hop schedule. This'll be a good opportunity to try a FWH.
So, the plan is:
1. Steep specialty grains
2. Build wort with extracts - 6# Light DME & 2# Wheat DME
3. FWH (Hold temp at 150-160 and steep Hops 30 min. - 3/4 oz Cascade, 1/2 oz Simcoe)
4. Begin boil
60 - 1 oz Warrior
45 - 3/4 oz Cascade
30 - 1/2 oz Mosaic
20 - 1/2 oz Mosaic
10 - 1/2 oz Cascade
8 - 1# Candi Sugar
5 - 1/2 oz Simcoe
Flameout - 1# Honey
I'll probably make my first attempt at an actual yeast starter instead of just re-hydrating because of the extra sugars.

Sound good?

__________________

PRIMARY 1: Empty
PRIMARY 2: Empty
BOTTLED: Modified Hellbender IIPA
BOTTLED: Christmas Ale
ON DECK: Nosferatu clone
On DECK: Hops, Hops, and more Hops

IPAFAN1 is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 05-01-2013, 11:19 AM   #3
IPAFAN1
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Cleveland/Elyria, Ohio
Posts: 14
Likes Given: 4

Default

Ouch. I just ran this through Beersmith, and I need to triple the amount of hops just to get it into the low end of the IBUs on a IIPA profile. this is going to be one expensive batch!

__________________

PRIMARY 1: Empty
PRIMARY 2: Empty
BOTTLED: Modified Hellbender IIPA
BOTTLED: Christmas Ale
ON DECK: Nosferatu clone
On DECK: Hops, Hops, and more Hops

IPAFAN1 is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 05-01-2013, 11:31 AM   #4
Yooper
Ale's What Cures You!
HBT_ADMIN.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Yooper's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Upper Michigan
Posts: 60,707
Liked 4364 Times on 3173 Posts
Likes Given: 848

Default

I'd probably move some of the hops to later in the boil- the 45 minute cascade, and 30 minute mosaic. But, yes, I'd say the late hops need to be increased to 1 oz at 20/15/10/5/0. And maybe more than one ounce at 0 minutes. A big IIPA needs lots of late hops to balance the bittering and the malt.

I don't think you need so many hops at FWH and 60 minutes, though. It depends on the AAU of the warrior, but I typically only need about .5 oz of warrior at 60 minutes to get 40 IBUs or so just from that addition.

__________________
Broken Leg Brewery
Giving beer a leg to stand on since 2006
Yooper is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 05-01-2013, 03:38 PM   #5
IPAFAN1
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Cleveland/Elyria, Ohio
Posts: 14
Likes Given: 4

Default

Thank You. I appreciate the feedback greatly. Yeah, the more I read, I was indeed planning to move more of the hops to later in the boil. I just bought some more, so we should have 15 oz total in this batch. Plenty available to consider using a couple for dry hopping. I'll have to rework some of these numbers again. Beersmith2 might have some different AAU ratings than the actual packages I have, but based on the list I had here, it only came out to a 25 IBU and the IIPA's should be 60-120. I'll triple everything up, check the numbers, recalculate, and see how it goes.

But you mentioned less hops at FWH and 60? From what I've read, it's been suggested using 30% of your total hop volume in the FWH. I only had 25% there on this first draught (sic) and actually was considering increasing that. Hmmm... By the way, the Warriors I just got are Hopunion, and are 15% Alpha.

__________________

PRIMARY 1: Empty
PRIMARY 2: Empty
BOTTLED: Modified Hellbender IIPA
BOTTLED: Christmas Ale
ON DECK: Nosferatu clone
On DECK: Hops, Hops, and more Hops

IPAFAN1 is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 05-01-2013, 07:10 PM   #6
Yooper
Ale's What Cures You!
HBT_ADMIN.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Yooper's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Upper Michigan
Posts: 60,707
Liked 4364 Times on 3173 Posts
Likes Given: 848

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by IPAFAN1 View Post
Thank You. I appreciate the feedback greatly. Yeah, the more I read, I was indeed planning to move more of the hops to later in the boil. I just bought some more, so we should have 15 oz total in this batch. Plenty available to consider using a couple for dry hopping. I'll have to rework some of these numbers again. Beersmith2 might have some different AAU ratings than the actual packages I have, but based on the list I had here, it only came out to a 25 IBU and the IIPA's should be 60-120. I'll triple everything up, check the numbers, recalculate, and see how it goes.

But you mentioned less hops at FWH and 60? From what I've read, it's been suggested using 30% of your total hop volume in the FWH. I only had 25% there on this first draught (sic) and actually was considering increasing that. Hmmm... By the way, the Warriors I just got are Hopunion, and are 15% Alpha.
Well, I don't know who suggested 30% of the total hop volume in FWH, but remember that it contributes to bitterness. It's a "smoother" bitterness, for sure, but that beer as written looks BITTER, and not 25 IBUs at all. 1 ounce or so of FWH plus an ounce of warrior for bittering will make a very bitter beer.
__________________
Broken Leg Brewery
Giving beer a leg to stand on since 2006
Yooper is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 05-01-2013, 07:31 PM   #7
mcbaumannerb
HBT_LIFETIMESUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 33 reviews
 
mcbaumannerb's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Phoenixville, Pennsylvania
Posts: 6,364
Liked 3890 Times on 2143 Posts
Likes Given: 13165

Default

I'd double-check what you have entered in Beersmith for your hops first - namely, the AA%, use and boil/steep time. For my last IIPA my first addition was 3/4 ounce of Simcoe (13.5) and that added 25 IBU. Also, are you doing partial or full boil? That's another impact to utilization.

__________________

Untappd: mcbaumannerb BEEr

Facebook: BEEr

"Oh mother, tell your children; not to do what I have done."

mcbaumannerb is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 05-02-2013, 01:16 PM   #8
IPAFAN1
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Cleveland/Elyria, Ohio
Posts: 14
Likes Given: 4

Default

Still doing a partial boil until I get a bigger pot and a wort chiller, but I'm definately gonna increase the boil size on this batch for that very reason. (Better hop utilization) Usually only boil about 1.5-2 gal and top off, but this is my most serious batch yet, so I'm gonna try to get at least a 3 gal boil going. Maybe it's time to look for that new bigger pot.

Yeah, I've gotta review the data in Beersmith and make sure there's no major discrepancies. I'm still suspicious though. I've done regular IPAs with 4 -5 oz of hops before, and they seemed fine. Not over-the-top hop-wise. It just seems logical that a big IIPA like I'm shooting for would use a lot more.

I'll have 15 oz on hand to play with. Depending on how the Beersmith data review goes, maybe they all won't get used on this one. Want to get into a minimum of 85 - 95 on the IBU. My favorite beers have been in the 80-90 range. Since a chunk of the hops will be FWH, it should be less harsh, so I'm willing to push it past 100 if possible. Save some for dry.

__________________

PRIMARY 1: Empty
PRIMARY 2: Empty
BOTTLED: Modified Hellbender IIPA
BOTTLED: Christmas Ale
ON DECK: Nosferatu clone
On DECK: Hops, Hops, and more Hops

IPAFAN1 is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 05-02-2013, 01:34 PM   #9
Yooper
Ale's What Cures You!
HBT_ADMIN.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Yooper's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Upper Michigan
Posts: 60,707
Liked 4364 Times on 3173 Posts
Likes Given: 848

Default

Oh, I see why the discrepancies in the IBU calculation now.

This is sort of a simplification, but hops utilization decreases greatly in a small boil. Not because the SG affects utilization (Palmer has come out and said he "got it wrong" in How to Brew), but because of the dilution when adding water.

There is a set amount of hops oils that can isomerize in wort- generally though to be 100 IBUs or so as the maximum.

If you're boiling 2 gallons, even if you were able to get the maximum amount of IBUs of 100 in the wort, by diluting it by over 50%, you're cutting the IBUs in more than have.

For example, if you have 2.5 gallons of 90 IBU wort, when you add 2.5 gallons of water (0 IBUs), right there you end up with 45 IBUs at the most in the fnished beer.

Adding more hops at 60 minutes won't help much- if the IBUs are already maxed. That's why it's really hard to make a great IPA or other high IBU beer with a partial boil.

I'd suggest boiling as much as you possibly can, and adding the majority of the extract at flame out (so you have more room in the pot for more liquid, plus don't get "cooked extract taste"), and that should maximize the IBUs you can get.

With a 3 gallon boil, that should end up with a 2 gallon wort, there would be no way to get more than about 40-45 IBUs in the beer unless you use something like hops extract.

__________________
Broken Leg Brewery
Giving beer a leg to stand on since 2006
Yooper is offline
2
People Like This 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 05-02-2013, 01:38 PM   #10
IPAFAN1
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Cleveland/Elyria, Ohio
Posts: 14
Likes Given: 4

Default

Excellent Advice! Thank you!

__________________

PRIMARY 1: Empty
PRIMARY 2: Empty
BOTTLED: Modified Hellbender IIPA
BOTTLED: Christmas Ale
ON DECK: Nosferatu clone
On DECK: Hops, Hops, and more Hops

IPAFAN1 is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Reply


Quick Reply
Message:
Options
Thread Tools


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
No Need to Balance? gcsowden Soda Making 9 02-17-2011 07:52 PM
Balance? What balance! I'm drinking a 5.5% 150 IBU pale Ale'ish/IPA, and loving it! HalfPint General Beer Discussion 10 08-14-2010 03:05 AM
Using your balance aekdbbop HomeBrewTalk Announcements & Feedback 5 01-05-2009 05:41 PM
BU:GU & Balance Value Sixbillionethans Recipes/Ingredients 2 05-17-2008 04:32 AM
where's your balance? Joe028 General Techniques 3 12-29-2007 01:16 PM