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Old 03-26-2013, 05:20 PM   #1
sicklesr
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Default Half and Half Lager

I'm thinking of the following Doppelbock. This is my first attempt at a Doppelbock and my first decotion. Please criticise and critque to improve this! I'll have some specific questions after the recipe!

---

Volume: 10 Gallon Batch
Method: e-BIAB, Single Decoction

17lb Briess GoldPils Vienna
17lb Briess Bonlander Munich
1lb Carafa Special

Mash Schedule:

  • All Grain into Main Kettle Bag @ 120* for 15 minutes
  • Heat mash to 152* and hold for 30 minutes
  • Decoct XX Amount to Side Kettle
  • Hold main mash at 152* during decoction
  • Bring Decoction to Boil, and Boil for 20 minutes.
  • Return Decotion to Main Kettle Bag
  • Mash at 152 for 10 additional minutes
  • Raise Temp to 170* for Mash Out
  • Remove Bag and Drain
  • Heat to boiling for 90 Minute Boil


Hop Schedule:
  • 3*oz Tettnang @ Boil Start (90 Minutes)
    *#oz depending on AA. 3oz was calulated with AA=3.9%
  • 1oz Hallertau @ 15 minutes
  • 1oz Hallertau @ 0 minutes

OG @70% = 1.088
Color = 25 SRM
IBU = 19 IBU

---

Questions:
1 - How much Decoction should I pull from the main kettle. I know the method is to get the thickest mash possible into the decoction, but how much grain should I pull? Also, how thick is too thick? I could cinch up th bag a bit and get REAL thick stuff if it's desireable.
2 - I'm not sure what temp to hold the original mash (in main kettle) while boiling the decoction. I used a normal mash temp (152), what do you reccomend?
3 - Should I remove the late Noble Hop additions? I'm trying to stay true to BJCP guidlines for a Dopplebock.



Thank you!
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Old 03-27-2013, 12:14 AM   #2
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Thinking about using SAFLAGER W-34/70 dry yeast, or SAFLAGER S-23. Anyone have any opinions on these? Would I be much better off getting a vial or two of liquid and stepping it up a few times?

I know one packet wont be enough for 1.088 Lager, but do I really need 1200 Billion cells like the calculator tells me? Thats 6 11.5 gram packets of yeast, or an 8 liter starter! Do you guys usually use starters THAT big?

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Old 03-27-2013, 12:27 AM   #3
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Before I answer, I have to say that, although I make a really good doppelbock, I have never done a decoction, but I know how they work. Look up Kaiser's videos on decoctions (his site, youtube, on here, etc., they're out there).

My advice:
I'd drop the late additions, they're really not necessary. You'll lager (hopefully) for a long time, and any late hop presence will be gone - and not part of the style anyway. For my bittering addition, I use German Magnum, it's a higher AA hop, therefore I don't need to purchase as much, and I'm just looking for a little bitterness.

For the decoction, you'll want to pull at least 1/3 of the mash, but what are you hoping to achieve with the decoction as far as temperature rests? Are you wanting to go from the initial 120 to 152? Are you wanting to go from 152 to your mashout? If the first, pull a thick portion like Kaiser shows in the videos. If you're looking to just go to mashout, the thickness isn't as necessary since you can pull more liquid since you won't need the mash enzymes any longer. Tell us more on what you're hoping to achieve with the decoction(s).

For the yeast, a big starter is really necessary. I like to use a stepped starter instead of a single huge starter. Yeastcalc.com can help with this. Decant the starter beer too. I REALLY like WLP833 for bocks (and for all lagers for that matter). It really leaves a nice malty profile when it finishes.

A couple of other things: aerate (or better still, oxygenate) very well. It'll help, believe me. Cool the wort down to fermentation temperatures, or even a few degrees below, before pitching. Don't cheat on this, even if you have to wait until the next day to pitch.

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Old 03-27-2013, 03:11 AM   #4
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I've got no reason to do the decoction besides the flavor profile I thought it created and that the BCJP calls it out. If I can avoid it, I'm absolutely OK with it!!!

Do you have a recipe for your Doppelbock?

I'm taking shipment of a 1/2sack of Munich, Vienna, and a full sack of 2row in about a week.

Thanks for the help with the hop schedule. I'll just man up and make the darned 2 gallon stepped up starter!

Also appreciate the tip on the chilling/aeration tip. I'll ensure to get down to ferm temps, and shake the crap outta that fermenter.

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Old 03-27-2013, 01:42 PM   #5
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For 6 gallons, I use 10 lbs of Munich, 5 lbs of Vienna, 14 oz of C120, 8 oz C60, 4 oz of Melanoidin, and enough bittering hops to get about 22 IBU. WLP 833 as mentioned above. I don't have my notes here, and I don't remember my mash schedule, but if I remember correctly it's just a single infusion at about 156. The grain bill is a little complicated now that I look at it, but this works, and it won a silver medal at NHC in 2011. I used Weyermann malts for the Munich and Vienna, Briess on the C malts. The OG is at the low end of the style, usually around 1.074 or 1.076, but that's OK IMO.

Like I said, use a decent starter, aerate really well, and chill well before pitching. Good luck!

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Old 03-27-2013, 02:03 PM   #6
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I don't understand your decoction schedule. Normally, you decoct to get to a higher mash temp. I don't understand decocting and then still holding the mash at 152. That doesn't make sense to me.

Here's a good solid mash schedule that I'd use for a decoction on a doublebock: http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php...oction_Mashing (the Hochkurz Double Decoction). You can do a single decoction if you want, of course. Scroll down through the methods and the explantions- it'll help a lot!

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Old 03-27-2013, 02:03 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sicklesr View Post
Thinking about using SAFLAGER W-34/70 dry yeast, or SAFLAGER S-23.
I will never touch S-23 again.

34/70 is OK if you pitch and ferment around 45F.
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Old 03-27-2013, 05:01 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yooper View Post
I don't understand your decoction schedule. Normally, you decoct to get to a higher mash temp. I don't understand decocting and then still holding the mash at 152. That doesn't make sense to me.
Thanks Yooper, I agree. I don't understand my mash schedule either.

Since I e-BIAB, I can change the temprature of my mash pretty easy without pulling wort off and heating it seperately. Would I get good results just following the thick black line on the decoction graphs?

Also, it seems that with highly modified grains, this all might be surperfluous. Maybe I'm just trying to turn my brew day more difficult than it has to be...
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Old 03-27-2013, 06:06 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sicklesr View Post
Thanks Yooper, I agree. I don't understand my mash schedule either.

Since I e-BIAB, I can change the temprature of my mash pretty easy without pulling wort off and heating it seperately. Would I get good results just following the thick black line on the decoction graphs?

Also, it seems that with highly modified grains, this all might be surperfluous. Maybe I'm just trying to turn my brew day more difficult than it has to be...
You wouldn't get good results at all following the thick black line - I'm assuming you're talking about taking all of your mash at the decoction schedule. You'd be boiling all of your mash, and I don't think that's a good idea for a number of reasons (although I suppose you'd technically still be hitting all of the temp rests).

For your first doppelbock, I'd hold off on the decoctions and just try a single rest. Make the brewday simple. Watch Kai's videos and read up on decoctions a little more and decide if you'd like to try them in the future.

I'm of the opinion that good German lagers come from simple grain bills from quality ingredients, simple brewdays, and attention to detail on the yeast and fermentation end.
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Old 03-27-2013, 07:03 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StoneHands View Post
I'm of the opinion that good German lagers come from simple grain bills from quality ingredients, simple brewdays, and attention to detail on the yeast and fermentation end.
Thanks! I'll take that wisdom and run with it. I'll be sure to respond here after brewday!
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