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Old 10-16-2012, 04:34 PM   #21
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Hop schedule if you use rager to calculate IBU

43.0 gm Columbus (Tomahawk) [17.70 %] (90 min) Hops 50.9 IBU
12.3 gm Centennial [9.20 %] (45 min) Hops 7.1 IBU
12.3 gm Citra [12.40 %] (45 min) Hops 9.5 IBU
12.3 gm Centennial [9.20 %] (30 min) Hops 4.0 IBU
12.3 gm Citra [12.40 %] (30 min) Hops 5.4 IBU
12.3 gm Centennial [9.20 %] (1 min) Hops 1.3 IBU
43.0 gm Simcoe [13.00 %] (1 min) Hops 6.5 IBU
6.20 gm Columbus (Tomahawk) [17.70 %] (1 min) Hops 1.3 IBU

The Dry hop is the same

You can see how different these numbers are. I am from the school of belief that you do get some bittering out of those flameout additions (mainly depending on the ammount of time your wort sits above 180) and that is why you'll always see my flameout additions at "1 min." I'm honestly not crazy about those Rager numbers. If your a little better in ounces, roughly 28g in an oz. I like the Tinseth numbers much better.

Since I guess replicating this recipe isn't about my beliefs. . . I present, Rager with flameout additions adding no bitterness.

47.40 gm Columbus (Tomahawk) [17.70 %] (90 min) Hops 58.5 IBU
13.50 gm Citra [12.40 %] (45 min) Hops 10.5 IBU
13.50 gm Centennial [9.20 %] (45 min) Hops 7.8 IBU
13.50 gm Centennial [9.20 %] (30 min) Hops 4.4 IBU
13.50 gm Citra [12.40 %] (30 min) Hops 5.9 IBU
47.40 gm Simcoe [13.00 %] (0 min) Hops -
6.80 gm Columbus (Tomahawk) [17.70 %] (0 min) Hops -
13.50 gm Centennial [9.20 %] (0 min) Hops -


Dry hop always the same .2oz/gal (1 oz:5 gal) for each hop

So, I guess it depends on how the folks at fatheads calculate it.



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Old 10-16-2012, 08:26 PM   #22
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I also posted a recipe for this based on Mitch's book. What is in the book and what is posted on there web site and at the brewery is different.this is what is on the website

HOPS: Columbus, Simcoe, Centennial
MALT: Pale, CaraMalt, C-15, Cara-Pils
http://www.fatheadsbrewing.com/beers.php

Talk to a manager at the brewery and he tells me there is no Citra in this beer, now maybe the recipe has changed and he is not aware.
The recipe I came up with is a bit different as I calculated 10 min for flame out addition. probably should be more as some brewers will whirlpool for 30+ min above 180 (300+ gallons of wort dont cool fast). In my system I am whirlpooling above 180 for at least 15 min.I have also calculated some bitterness from the mash hop I have used Tineseth and slightly rounded my numbers. Im not great at Math so hopefully these are sort of in line

Malt Bill

7 lbs 12.0 oz Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) 50.5 %
4 lbs Pale Malt, Maris Otter (3.0 SRM) 26.1 %
14 oz Carahell (13.0 SRM) 5.7 %
14 oz Crystal Malt 40L (40.0 SRM) 5.7 %
12 oz Wheat Flaked Toasted (8.0 SRM) 4.9 %
5 oz Cara-Pils (2.0 SRM) 2.0 %
12.5 oz Corn Sugar 5.1 %

Hops
Mash 7 g Centennial [9.20 %] - 90.0 min 1.4 IBUs

21 g CTZ [17.70 %] - Boil 90.0 min 39.2 IBUs
7 g Citra [12.40 %] - Boil 45.0 min 7.9 IBUs
7 g Centennial [9.20 %] - Boil 45.0 min 5.8 IBUs
7 g Citra [12.40 %] - Boil 30.0 min 6.6 IBUs
7 g Centennial [9.20 %] - Boil 30.0 min 4.9 IBUs
24 g Simcoe [13.00 %] - Boil 10.0 min 11.6 IBUs
17 g Centennial [9.20 %] - Boil 10.0 min 5.8 IBUs
4 g Columbus [14.20 %] - Boil 10.0 min 2.1 IBUs

28 g Centennial [9.20 %] - Dry Hop 10.0 Days
28 g Simcoe [12.27 %] - Dry Hop 10.0 Days
28 g Citra [12.40 %] - Dry Hop 10.0 Days
28 g Columbus [14.20 %] - Dry Hop 10.0 Days

Quote:
Originally Posted by brybarrett View Post
Here is the water profile

Ca 163ppm
Mg 8.5ppm
Na 21ppm
SO4 365ppm
Cl 23.5 ppm
HCO3 104ppm
This looks to be an on going challenge I have brewed this recipe but will not dry hop with Citra do not detect it in the Fat head version


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Old 10-16-2012, 08:58 PM   #23
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I just thought of something on the way home from work listening to Vinnie Cilurzo from Russian River talk about hops on an old Brewing Network podcast...

In Pliny, he uses a high alpha hop extract for his bittering addition. It leaves less hop material in the beer & helps eliminate vegetal flavors that can pop up when using large amounts of hops. It also gives you a clean bitterness.

I'm wondering if this was the trade secret Matt mentioned. Makes sense since the alpha acid for his bittering Columbus addition is so much higher than the other CTZ additions.

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Old 10-17-2012, 03:36 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bellsbrat View Post
I also posted a recipe for this based on Mitch's book. What is in the book and what is posted on there web site and at the brewery is different.this is what is on the website

HOPS: Columbus, Simcoe, Centennial
MALT: Pale, CaraMalt, C-15, Cara-Pils
http://www.fatheadsbrewing.com/beers.php

Talk to a manager at the brewery and he tells me there is no Citra in this beer, now maybe the recipe has changed and he is not aware.
The recipe I came up with is a bit different as I calculated 10 min for flame out addition. probably should be more as some brewers will whirlpool for 30+ min above 180 (300+ gallons of wort dont cool fast). In my system I am whirlpooling above 180 for at least 15 min.I have also calculated some bitterness from the mash hop I have used Tineseth and slightly rounded my numbers. Im not great at Math so hopefully these are sort of in line

Malt Bill

7 lbs 12.0 oz Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) 50.5 %
4 lbs Pale Malt, Maris Otter (3.0 SRM) 26.1 %
14 oz Carahell (13.0 SRM) 5.7 %
14 oz Crystal Malt 40L (40.0 SRM) 5.7 %
12 oz Wheat Flaked Toasted (8.0 SRM) 4.9 %
5 oz Cara-Pils (2.0 SRM) 2.0 %
12.5 oz Corn Sugar 5.1 %

Hops
Mash 7 g Centennial [9.20 %] - 90.0 min 1.4 IBUs

21 g CTZ [17.70 %] - Boil 90.0 min 39.2 IBUs
7 g Citra [12.40 %] - Boil 45.0 min 7.9 IBUs
7 g Centennial [9.20 %] - Boil 45.0 min 5.8 IBUs
7 g Citra [12.40 %] - Boil 30.0 min 6.6 IBUs
7 g Centennial [9.20 %] - Boil 30.0 min 4.9 IBUs
24 g Simcoe [13.00 %] - Boil 10.0 min 11.6 IBUs
17 g Centennial [9.20 %] - Boil 10.0 min 5.8 IBUs
4 g Columbus [14.20 %] - Boil 10.0 min 2.1 IBUs

28 g Centennial [9.20 %] - Dry Hop 10.0 Days
28 g Simcoe [12.27 %] - Dry Hop 10.0 Days
28 g Citra [12.40 %] - Dry Hop 10.0 Days
28 g Columbus [14.20 %] - Dry Hop 10.0 Days



This looks to be an on going challenge I have brewed this recipe but will not dry hop with Citra do not detect it in the Fat head version
Everything looks a lot like what I have, except I've laid it out in 10 gallon finished beer volume and I missed any information about a mash hop. I'd give it a go. If I could ask Matt Cole one question right now it would have be if the IBU numbers on Head Hunter are calculated or measured. That would take a lot of guess work out of the hop schedule for us. It's hard to say really. I suspect that perhaps Citra never was a part of this recipe since I've heard rumbling from brewer friends that Head Hunter features Simcoe/Centennial. It's my opinion that when you get good examples of Simcoe and Citra that they are similar enough. Perhaps that is where the change comes from. Also, maybe at one point instead of using Centennial they used a blend of Columbus/Cascade (Centennial Type hops, or should I say the idea of them has been around for a long long time, I know a lot of breweries who have used a 30/70 blend). Since that time it is possible that they were able to procure a contract for centennial hops. Lastly, and trust me, just because it is printed on the label or published on a website doesn't make it accurate. I'd believe the information in the book, from the man who brews it before anything else. What do you plan to dry hop with in place of citra?
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Old 10-17-2012, 11:57 AM   #25
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Awhile ago when Citra was new & just becoming popular, I think Matt did tell me he was experimenting with it in his Hop JuJu...maybe he experimented with it in Head Hunter as well. It's not much Citra & when used, it's mostly for bittering. You get such intense aromatics from Columbus & Simcoe, that the Citra dry hop may not be clearly detectable. It seems to me he's going for unique hop flavors & aromas by blending his hops together for each addition.

Also, I'm sold that he uses hop extract for the bittering addition of Columbus. If you think about it, there's less trub left behind so he'll have a greater final yield that way. With professional breweries, they need to think about the economics involved also. If they can sell an extra X# of beers per batch, it adds up by the end of the year when it's a beer they have on tap pretty much all the time.

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Old 10-18-2012, 12:31 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CTownBrewer View Post
I just thought of something on the way home from work listening to Vinnie Cilurzo from Russian River talk about hops on an old Brewing Network podcast...

In Pliny, he uses a high alpha hop extract for his bittering addition. It leaves less hop material in the beer & helps eliminate vegetal flavors that can pop up when using large amounts of hops. It also gives you a clean bitterness.

I'm wondering if this was the trade secret Matt mentioned. Makes sense since the alpha acid for his bittering Columbus addition is so much higher than the other CTZ additions.
Funny you say that I actually used Hopshot (co2 hop extract, beleive it is CTZ) I used a little over 4ml @ 90

Quote:
Originally Posted by rjschroed View Post
What do you plan to dry hop with in place of citra?
I won't replace it with anything maybe just up the rest by 1/4 ounce

Quote:
Originally Posted by rjschroed View Post
I suspect that perhaps Citra never was a part of this recipe since I've heard rumbling from brewer friends that Head Hunter features Simcoe/Centennial.
I agree was just at the brewery Saturday, they had the Headhunter they brewed for the GABF on tap and I didn't detect any Citra, but defiantly Simcoe/Centennial/Columbus with the Columbus and Simcoe more pronounced. My palate is not the greatest so if the Citra is subtle it may be there but I dont think so.
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Old 10-18-2012, 02:40 PM   #27
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You guys who posted the recipes, what numbers did you use for your hop utilization %? Was that specific to your system or pre-built into the brewing software you used.

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Old 10-18-2012, 03:00 PM   #28
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Built into beersmith for me. Obviously utilization is, at minimum, somewhat different for everyone. I have no idea how accurate either tinnseth or rager is in my system. In the end it doesn't really matter it's just a reference point. I know I've brewed an "85 IBU" beer before so if I feel like Head Hunter is more or less hoppy, I'll adjust that way. I ran the numbers the few different ways I did so you could choose which of the 2 recipe sounds like it would work better for you.

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Old 02-03-2014, 11:19 AM   #29
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I want to start working on a clone of this but, after drinking a couple last night, I don't see Mitch Steele's recipe in that beer. I don't get Citra, but can agree with Columbus, centennial, and simcoe...100%. I dont get wheat or that complex grain bill. If it is at an FG of 1.014, I won't use carapils as a homebrewer. The pros are probably not using sugar and are using Dextrin to get the FG *UP* to 1.014. I've got a draft recipe worked up, based more on my pallet than the book recipe. I don't want to share the recipe until I brew it.



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