Extract Q: English Pale Ale vs American Pale Ale

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Bonneville

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I was thinking of brewing an English Pale Ale ala a Bass Ale. Looking at some of the recipes, it seems the only real difference between and APA and English Pale Ale is hops and yeast. Am I missing something? Replace Cascade with Kent Golding/Fuggle and use English Ale yeast? That's it?

Also, I had planned to re-use a wyeast 1271 (American Ale II) cake. If yeast is 1 of 2 changes, that probably won't work. I would need one of the London/British strains. My plan was to brew English Pale Ale followed by a stout for some Black & Tans... but I've never pitched to a yeast cake and so I kinda wanted to do that.

Also, is an English Pale Ale the same thing as an ESB?
 
I was thinking of brewing an English Pale Ale ala a Bass Ale. Looking at some of the recipes, it seems the only real difference between and APA and English Pale Ale is hops and yeast. Am I missing something? Replace Cascade with Kent Golding/Fuggle and use English Ale yeast? That's it?

The malt is different too. Domestic pale for APA and British pale for that style is the norm. Besides the hops themselves the two styles use a different hop schedule. British ales typically use a two addition schedule for hops, one early and one late. American pales might usually have three additions, early, middle and late.



Also, is an English Pale Ale the same thing as an ESB?

No. An ESB is in the British pale ale family but would be a bit bigger both in gravity and hops as well as maybe a little deeper in color than a basic pale ale/bitter.
 
Don't waste your yeast cake. If you have some Fuggles to go with some American malt on the American yeast you are going to end up with a very drinkable version of this stuff called beer.

FWIW I would, in your shoes, follow an American Pale Ale recipe and sub the Fuggles in for "Cascade" HBU for HBU. It will seem like a metric fook-ton of ounces of hops, but it will be a bishing beverage when it is ready.
 
PD - I've wasted every yeast cake up until now. Too lazy (and fridge-constrained) to wash yeast. Thought I would give the yeast cake method a go. However, stuck on the black-and-tan idea and plan to bottle the pale ale and keg the stout.

Ed - So I also need to attempt to get British DME/LME (e.g. Munton & Fison). Also, would Bass be an English Pale Ale or an ESB, technically?

I'm kind of thinking Poindexter's hybrid beer might not be bad... British extract (if available), Fuggles, and the wrong yeast (cake). I want the the pale ale to be a BIG beer with a high FG (to facilitate cleaner B&Ts)... so the yeast cake would be nice for a big, high OG beer.

BTW, all this got started when my friends decided my last porter and golden ale made a great "mud beer" combination. Oddly enough, they were right.
 
We brewed a beer last night, swapping out the cascade and replacing it with fuggle for our aroma hops. It seemed to just be a little larger amount matching hbu for hbu, how did you come up with the metric fook-ton amount? I'm excited!
 
British ales typically use a two addition schedule for hops, one early and one late.... An ESB is in the British pale ale family but would be a bit bigger both in gravity and hops as well as maybe a little deeper in color than a basic pale ale/bitter.

I know this is an old thread, but can you (or anyone) give me an idea of what the two-addition schedule would be? 60 and 5? 40 and 1?

Also, what would the IBUs be for an English Pale Ale compared to an ESB?

Any information would be appreciated - thanks!

Ron
 
depends if you are revering to what the BJCP call an English pale e.g a bitter, special bitter or an ESB or what CAMRA would refer to a a golden or blond ale.

The BJCP styles use more crystal malt (british caramel) with a quality British base malt, with an English yeast and a low flavour/aroma hopping rates with classic English hops, perhaps some sugar or corn.

The CAMRA style (which is what as a brit I think of an an actual English pale) is more like a US pale except with pale british malts, uk lager malt or low colour maris otter, with new world hops and UK yeast.

An example of the first would be Fullers ESB and example of the second might be hopback summer lightning or Crouchvale brewers gold.
 
I know this is an old thread, but can you (or anyone) give me an idea of what the two-addition schedule would be? 60 and 5? 40 and 1?

Also, what would the IBUs be for an English Pale Ale compared to an ESB?

Any information would be appreciated - thanks!

Ron

Take a look at the 2015 BJCP guidelines - they don't list English Pale or ESB. In the past (I think), ESB was the same as a strong bitter, which was like a pale ale. Bass is a pale ale (per the label). Personally, I think pale or ESB is around 30-45 IBU, and it is malty, not hoppy.

Think of Irish Red without the roasted barley. Hops at 60 and 30 (or maybe 60/20 or 60/15, but no later). The aroma will come from the yeast (fruity-ish in the case of pale), so the hops need to be in the middle of the boil.

That's just my thoughts.
 
I know this is an old thread, but can you (or anyone) give me an idea of what the two-addition schedule would be? 60 and 5? 40 and 1?

Also, what would the IBUs be for an English Pale Ale compared to an ESB?

Any information would be appreciated - thanks!

Ron

One of the keys here is a 90 minute boil. I tried for years to make a UK Pale/bitter that tasted like the ones I had loved in my favorite taverns. I had been using the typical American/homebrew hop schedule of three additions with a 60 minute boil, like 60/30/5. They never came out the way I envisioned.

I saw some info on a UK brewing forum calling for two hop additions within a 90 minute boil, like 90/20. I tried it and it was so much better. It immediately cured my overthinking on the problem. For the IBUs think in ratios rather than raw numbers. Shoot for an IBU number that is about 75% of the OG. For instance if you have a bitter with OG 1.044 try for an IBU in the low 30s.

An ESB is pretty much the same but with a higher OG and maybe a touch more crystal malt and color. So for an ESB with a OG of 1.060 look to hit an IBU number in the low 40s.

The other imperative I would urge is use good quality UK malts and hops. Don't skimp on the ingredients. :mug:
 
Many thanks, Ed and Eric -

Given my available ingredients, I'm looking at a combination of Maris Otter (90%) and 30-37L Carastan Crystal (10%). For hops, I will use Fuggle hops (amount and schedule to be determined). I'm shooting for 30 IBUs ,and it's looking like Nottingham will be the yeast I use, although S04 is still a possibility.
 
I'd say 10% crystal is a bit of overkill for British styles. 2-5% is enough unless you are making a dark mild or some specialty beer. As you mention, Ed, a schedule of 90/20 or 60/20 works well. Both hop additions are roughly the same size (so the late addition is much smaller than the US equivalents). The very late additions can come across too sharp for what is typical to these beers (although some breweries will add very late hops or steep). In the UK these beers are dry hopped, often in the cask. If you want the same results you should go for around an ounce of dry hops (a muslin bag in the cask works best).
 
Good morning, gents, and thanks for the continued input. I think I'm slowly getting this dialed in. I've never had an English Pale Ale, so I am flying a little blind here; it is not available locally for me to try. I greatly appreciate the assistance and thank you for your patience in explaining (or sometimes re-explaining) the finer points in achieving a good result.

I'll start a new thread soon, because this thread was intended to originally be about extract brewing, but here are a couple of points that may or may not be important:

a) I'm not going for an IPA, but am looking for a malt-forward pale ale with a good balance of flavor and aroma from the hops, with the yeast flavor characteristics that Eric describes; IBUs are intended to be right about 30, no more than 32.

b) This will be a 1-gallon batch; because of that, I don't think I can get a 90-minute boil achieved without a lot of hassle, so I will try to make my hop additions within 60 minutes. Eric's advice ("The aroma will come from the yeast (fruity-ish in the case of pale), so the hops need to be in the middle of the boil") Sounds like exactly what I am going for, so a 60/20 might be the way to go.

@JKaranka - a couple of questions following up on your post, if you don't mind:

a) Re: the Crystal malt, would 5% be right for the goals stated above? The 10% that I originally proposed was with that in mind, but as I said, I'm flying blind, with this project.

b) Re: any dry-hopping, 1 oz. for a gallon? I've never dry-hopped, so it seems like a LOT...but, if it is right, then I'll give it a try. :mug:

Thanks again - When I start the new thread specifically for this project, I'll be grateful for the continued help.

Ron
 
I meant an ounce for five gallons. So 1/5oz will do! I'd say British bitters (pale ales) are a bit more bitter than that. Several ones with low og (1.035-1.040) might have more than 1 IBU/OG. I'd suggest around 0.8 or above, so 36 IBU for a 1.045OG best bitter. In reality they are often more bitter than that. One of my local breweries rates a healthy 45IBU for an 1.041 beer.

Remember: As most of the hops are added early the bitterness will be more clean than sharp, and you can get more bitterness while being pleasant than in an AIPA.
 
A key thing is that English beers should be served warmer (50-55F/~12C) and with lower carbonation than American styles. This means that the malt flavors come out more, which is part of the balance between the hops and malt, and hides some of the sharpness of hops that would be dominant in an APA similar hopping rates.
 
For bitter serving temperature I'd go a bit cooler 8-10c (45-50f). Agree on the carbonation. It's around 1.5 in cask and 2.0 in bottle. With keg you would probably want to aim at the bottle carbonation end or a tad less (1.8?).

The level of maltiness of bitter / pale ale caries a lot by brewery and region. They tend to be maltier and less bitter towards the south east and paler and more bitter towards the north west.

A completely different story is whether you'd serve with a sparkler or without one. They are used in the north and here in Wales. People from the south despise them. I bet Americans love them!
 
If you don't know about sparklers, the author of this article is against but it is informative:
http://baileysbeerblog.blogspot.co.uk/2015/01/a-sparkler-is-device-which-ruins-beer.html

Some comments from northerners drinking southern unsparkled beer:
"Im a Yorkshireman living in Hampshire, every cask pint I ever drank in the North had a sparkler on, I personally hate the flat southern pints and prefer to drink Guinness and lager down here, the sparkler changes the texture also, drinking southern beer is like drinking tea, I can't get used to it, pubs down here won't put sparklers on and even if they did, the bar staff dont know how to pour the pint properly with them on."

"Also coming from Yorkshire, beer was always served through a sparkler. I definitely prefer it this way. The head lasts all the way to the bottom of the pint and it looks creamy and appetising. Living in London is a challenge as most ale I've tried is pulled flat with hardly any head. Looks like dishwater. Recently visited the theakston brewery. All their ale was served through a sparkler. It tasted amazing. If that's how it's served at the source then why can't pubs in London serve it like that's? Surely that's how best to serve the pint. Obviously personal preference. For me, no sparkler, no ale."
 

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