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Home Brew Forums > Home Brewing Beer > Recipes/Ingredients > Dark Red & Hoppy?
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Old 02-18-2013, 01:02 AM   #1
kiwirevo
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Default Dark Red & Hoppy?

Hi, I'm looking for some feedback on this recipe, I may replace the Willamette for Simcoe or Amarillo if I can get them but feedback on how it is currently would be appreciated? Am I just wasting hops at this level? (Sorry about the odd measurements, I build it in Metric but figured I'd get more feedback if it's imperial)
Thanks in advance.

Brew Method: BIAB
Boil Time: 60 min
Batch Size: 5 gallons (fermentor volume)
Boil Size: 7.5 gallons
Efficiency: 60% (brew house)

STATS:
Original Gravity: 1.090
Final Gravity: 1.025
ABV (standard): 8.51%
IBU (rager): 129.98
SRM (morey): 29.33

FERMENTABLES:
11 lb - United Kingdom - Maris Otter Pale (54.1%)
2.2 lb - German - CaraRed (10.8%)
1.1 lb - United Kingdom - Wheat (5.4%)
0.55 lb - German - De-Husked Caraf I (2.7%)
4.4 lb - German - Munich Dark (21.6%)
1.1 lb - Belgian - Aromatic (5.4%)

HOPS:
0.9 oz - Centennial for 20 min, Type: Pellet, Use: Boil (AA 10, IBU: 13.45)
0.9 oz - NZ Cascade for 20 min, Type: Pellet, Use: Boil (AA 9.2, IBU: 12.37)
0.9 oz - NZ Chinook for 20 min, Type: Pellet, Use: Boil (AA 9.6, IBU: 12.91)
0.9 oz - Willamette for 20 min, Type: Pellet, Use: Boil (AA 4.5, IBU: 6.05)
0.9 oz - Centennial for 15 min, Type: Pellet, Use: Boil (AA 10, IBU: 10.56)
0.9 oz - NZ Cascade for 15 min, Type: Pellet, Use: Boil (AA 9.2, IBU: 9.72)
0.9 oz - NZ Chinook for 15 min, Type: Pellet, Use: Boil (AA 9.6, IBU: 10.14)
0.9 oz - Willamette for 15 min, Type: Pellet, Use: Boil (AA 4.5, IBU: 4.75)
0.9 oz - Centennial for 10 min, Type: Pellet, Use: Boil (AA 10, IBU: 8.6)
0.9 oz - NZ Cascade for 10 min, Type: Pellet, Use: Boil (AA 9.2, IBU: 7.91)
0.9 oz - NZ Chinook for 10 min, Type: Pellet, Use: Boil (AA 9.6, IBU: 8.26)
0.9 oz - Willamette for 10 min, Type: Pellet, Use: Boil (AA 4.5, IBU: 3.87)
0.9 oz - Centennial for 5 min, Type: Pellet, Use: Boil (AA 10, IBU: 6.42)
0.9 oz - NZ Cascade for 5 min, Type: Pellet, Use: Boil (AA 9.2, IBU: 5.91)
0.9 oz - NZ Chinook for 5 min, Type: Pellet, Use: Boil (AA 9.6, IBU: 6.16)
0.9 oz - Willamette for 5 min, Type: Pellet, Use: Boil (AA 4.5, IBU: 2.89)
0.9 oz - Centennial for 0 min, Type: Pellet, Use: Boil (AA 10)
0.9 oz - NZ Cascade for 0 min, Type: Pellet, Use: Boil (AA 9.2)
0.9 oz - NZ Chinook for 0 min, Type: Pellet, Use: Boil (AA 9.6)
0.9 oz - Willamette for 0 min, Type: Pellet, Use: Boil (AA 4.5)
0.9 oz - Centennial for 0 min, Type: Pellet, Use: Aroma (AA 10)
0.9 oz - NZ Cascade for 0 min, Type: Pellet, Use: Aroma (AA 9.2)
0.9 oz - NZ Chinook for 0 min, Type: Pellet, Use: Aroma (AA 9.6)
0.9 oz - Willamette for 0 min, Type: Pellet, Use: Aroma (AA 4.5)

YEAST:
Danstar - American West Coast Yeast BRY-97
Starter: No
Form: Dry
Attenuation (avg): 72%
Flocculation: High
Optimum Temp: 62 - 75 F
Additional Yeast: another half packet of BRY-97

NOTES:
Add the Boil time zero hops at flame out then the Aroma time zeros once temp below 60degrees

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Old 02-18-2013, 04:27 AM   #2
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Sweet Jesus, you're not messing around! That is a heck of a hops schedule! I'll refrain from giving any advise here since I've never attempted anything close, and am not familiar with CaraRed. Subscribed, to see what others may have to say. Good luck!

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Old 02-18-2013, 05:48 AM   #3
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That seems like waaaaay to many hop additions, and I love an overly hopped beer. Also at that SRM you are going to end up with a brown color a bit past red. I just brewed a hoppy amber ale and only used 4 oz of hops in the boil and I am currently dry hopping with another 2 oz. my SRM was at 17 and it was bordering on coppery brown.

Personally I would choose a bittering hop with a higher AA% for the start of the boil and maybe 2 flavor hops to add later on in the boil. I feel like the flavors might be muddled here with so many different hops. 6-8 oz would be the most I would put in during the boil and that's still pretty high.

As for the malts, I would cut out a portion of the darker ones. Mess around with beersmith until you get around 16-17 SRM. I used 1 lb Carared, 8 oz Melanoidin, and 2 oz chocolate malt to gety color instead of the carafa. It's totally up to you tho. But by all means if you wanna experiment and make an insanely hoppy darker beer go right ahead. I'd be quite interested to see how your recipe turns out.

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Old 02-18-2013, 05:49 AM   #4
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Thanks 501irishred, I'm do love pushing the boundaries

I will have to stick to Willamette as my LHBS just said they don't have/can't get at the moment, some Simcoe or Amarillo.

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Old 02-18-2013, 05:54 AM   #5
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CaraRed is just another version of Crystal 20 made by Weyermann. It's fairly light, and despite the name, you're not going to get a red color from using it... especially the typical hoppy AIIPA amounts of crystal we usually see at 0-5% in recipes.

10.8% crystal for a hoppy red colored IIPA is kind of overkill in terms of Sweetness, and this will limit your hop focus by more than double it's potential. It's doable though if you're going more for a sweet American Red Ale. The dark munich is also overkill. Use light munich at 10% or less. 2% chocolate malt could also be used if you want the color contribution, but without the flavor contribution or acrid bitterness of a few other black malts. Ditch the aromatic malt, and cut some of your Maris Otter with American 2-row. You might need a longer 90 minute mash otherwise considering the reduced diastatic power of all of your character malts. Mashing low (148-150 F) will help you with fermentability and lower that FG.

You're going to want to get that attenuation way up so it finishes below 1.015 FG. Keep the ferm. temp in the low to mid 60s. Lastly, the Willamette seems a little out of place here. I think it'll be fine with the three C hops... or with Simcoe/Amarillo like you said. And the entire hop schedule is funky... I don't like what you're doing with no bittering addition and everything at 20-15-10-5-0 with no dryhop... certainly not for an IIPA.

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Old 02-18-2013, 06:00 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bassaholic View Post
That seems like waaaaay to many hop additions, and I love an overly hopped beer. Also at that SRM you are going to end up with a brown color a bit past red. I just brewed a hoppy amber ale and only used 4 oz of hops in the boil and I am currently dry hopping with another 2 oz. my SRM was at 17 and it was bordering on coppery brown.

Personally I would choose a bittering hop with a higher AA% for the start of the boil and maybe 2 flavor hops to add later on in the boil. I feel like the flavors might be muddled here with so many different hops. 6-8 oz would be the most I would put in during the boil and that's still pretty high.

As for the malts, I would cut out a portion of the darker ones. Mess around with beersmith until you get around 16-17 SRM. I used 1 lb Carared, 8 oz Melanoidin, and 2 oz chocolate malt to gety color instead of the carafa. It's totally up to you tho. But by all means if you wanna experiment and make an insanely hoppy darker beer go right ahead. I'd be quite interested to see how your recipe turns out.
I want to try only late hop additions as I've been doing a bit of reading and it apparently results in a smoother bitterness, which is probably a good thing with this many hops. I could drop the entire Willamette hopping though, that brings the ibu down to 110 and as you say, would reduce the risk of it being muddled.

Just did a little playing with the grain bill, I've never used Melanodin malt before so I'll have a little read. I'm not too concerned about the colour, I just want a decent malt flavour to try and balance the hops
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Old 02-18-2013, 06:07 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobbrews View Post
CaraRed is just another version of Crystal 20 made by Weyermann. It's fairly light, and despite the name, you're not going to get a red color from using it... especially the typical hoppy AIIPA amounts of crystal we usually see at 0-5% in recipes.

10.8% crystal for a hoppy red colored IIPA is kind of overkill in terms of Sweetness, and this will limit your hop focus by more than double it's potential. It's doable though if you're going more for a sweet American Red Ale. The dark munich is also overkill. Use light munich at 10% or less. 2% chocolate malt could also be used if you want the color contribution, but without the flavor contribution or acrid bitterness of a few other black malts. Ditch the aromatic malt, and cut some of your Maris Otter with American 2-row. You might need a longer 90 minute mash otherwise considering the reduced diastatic power of all of your character malts. Mashing low (148-150 F) will help you with fermentability and lower that FG.

You're going to want to get that attenuation way up so it finishes below 1.015 FG. Keep the ferm. temp in the low to mid 60s. Lastly, the Willamette seems a little out of place here. I think it'll be fine with the three C hops. And the schedule is funky... I don't like what you're doing with no bittering addition and everything at 20-15-10-5-0 with no dryhop.
Hi Bobbrews,
I think I'll definitely review my grain bill and use some of your suggestions.
Can I ask why the cut of Maris for 2-Row?

I think I will drop the Willamette. so now I'm down to only 450grams of hops
As I said in the previous post I'm keen to try only late hop additions. (and no dry hop)
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Old 02-18-2013, 06:26 AM   #8
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The grain bill could go either way. It really depends on wether you want a dryer beer with more hop characters or a slightly sweeter beer to balance out the hoppiness a bit. Cut out some of the caramel malts to reduce the sweetness or leave them if you like. I personally like the balanced versions better.

I feel that the 20 and 15 minute additions will give you more bitterness than flavor. I think you might save a bit of money on hops if you just use an oz or two of neutral bittering hop, such as magnum or warrior, at 60 min and then maybe do 3 oz of the c's at 10 and 0. This should give you plenty of the hoppy flavor and you can still taste the results of the late hop additions.

If money's not an issue, then you could always stick to your hop schedule. It would be nice to see the outcome. Keep us posted on your decisions/outcome.

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Old 02-18-2013, 06:37 AM   #9
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What about the maris for 2-row change? Why did you suggest that? I've used Maris in 75%+ of my all grains and love it but keen to know your reason for swapping it?

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Old 02-18-2013, 06:40 AM   #10
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Oh and I pretty much always 90 min mash.

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