Cuvee de Tomme clone group project - Page 2

saq · 10-20-2009, 03:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by juvinious

If you haven't read this yet, although I'm sure you have since it's in the comments of the CdT webpage, I think it might help as there is some info that might be useful:
Clicky.

Looks suspciously like a New World Westy recipe for MOAB. I'm sticking with a traditional westy base. Based off my remembering the tasting experience of Judgment Day (never had MOAB) it does actually taste a lot like my New World Westy.

juvinious · 10-20-2009, 03:37 AM

Well I'm not talking about his recipe specifically, you can come up with your own recipe or whatever. I'm talking about his research which partly seems to come from brew like a monk and wildbrews, but I don't know since I don't own the books although I should.

saq · 10-20-2009, 04:49 AM

Ok, so after dinner and cleaning the brewing equipment I sat down and did some reading while drinking a glass of Rodenbach Grand Cru for inspiration. I crack open "Wild Brews" by Jeff Sparrow (you MUST own this, all of you) and find two references by Cuvee De Tomme. One is the general description mentioned in this thread already, and the other is a example recipe for a beer called "Donkere Geneeskundle" that says it MAY have been inspired by Cuvee De Tomme. Lets see what it says shall we?

Pilsener 66%
Wheat 6%
Munich 6%
Aromatic 6%
Caramunich 6%
Special B 2%
Chocolate 2%
Sugar 6%

Mash: 90 minutes at 152
Boil: 2 hours
Bittering hop addition 25 IBUs recommended Challenger
Finishing hop addition .5oz per 5 gallons in the last 2 minutes of the boil with Styrian Goldings as the recommended hop

OG 1.087

Primary: Wyeast 1213 or Wyeast 3763 or White Labs 530 at 63f for 1 week

Secondary: Wyeast 3278 White Labs 655 in secondary for 6+ months at cellar temperature

Options:
Age with fresh dark cherries
Age with used bourbon barrel

That looks like a modified New World Westvleteren recipe that was fermented too cold

It also coinincides with the data in the link juvinious posted.

Wild brews was no help with malolactic fermentation (an option discussed in the awesome Homebrewtalk Chat with Saccharomyces) of cherries/cherry juice to help increase the sourness and possibly cut down on some of the harshness of the malic acid that could be included with cherries and especially cherry juice.

It did however say that Tart/Sour cherries were totally the way to go with any kind of Wild Brew.

**Saccharomyces** · 10-20-2009, 05:04 AM

Great catch saq. It's right there like he handed it to us on a silver freakin platter. Sub raisins for half of the sugar, and wha-bam. Done.

I think aging in oak barrels for any length of time malolactic fermentation will likely occur whether we kick it off or not since oak often harbors ML bacteria along with many other goodies. I would hate to see it happen after bottling and end up with volcanoes shooting out of my bottles (I know I will be bottling such an epic brew in Belgian bottles... will you?) so I would plan to add ML bacteria along with the bugs to help it along. The Brett will clean up the diacetyl produced by the pedio and ML bacteria nicely. As you pointed out in chat, it is quite possible that ML is the key to getting the lacto sourness they get in this brew, since there should be quite a bit of malic acid in the cherries. Pedio may also contribute somewhat assuming that a lot of the sugar comes from the cherries so that they have time to work before the brew gets pushed over that magic 8% mark.

saq · 10-20-2009, 05:31 AM

Ok, found a few other interesting tidbits that will be useful for this project regarding acid production, alcohol tolerances and other goodies

Acetobacter: 18% alcohol tolerance, produces up to 8% acetic acid, needs lots of oxygen, needs about 30 days for optimal growth and likes temps in the range of 70f to 110f.

Brettanomyces: 18% alcohol tolerance, produces both lactic and acetic acid, survives up to a 3.4 pH, needs about 100 days for optimal growth and likes temps ranging from 40f to 95f.

Enterobacter (this is a bad guy): 2% alcohol tolerance and a 4.3 pH tolerance, produces lactic acid, will produce up to .5% acetic acid, 2 days for optimal growth and is good 50f to 122f.

Lactobacillus: Up to 8% alcohol tolerant, 3.8 pH tolerant, produces up to 1% lactic acid, needs 4 days for optimal growth, likes temps 60 to 140.

Pediococcus: Up to 8% alcohol tolerant, 3.4 pH tolerant, produces up to 2% lactic acid, needs 100 days for optimal growth, likes temps 45 to 140.

Sounds like sour cherry juice being 3.1-3.4 pH would really help us lock in a low pH, plus some additional lactic acid from a malolactic fermentation would help smooth out a large amount of cherry juice.

KopyKat · 10-20-2009, 06:25 AM

Mmmmmmm, sour cherries. Saccharomyces, how much do you reckon we will we need for a barrel?

http://www.petersonfarmsinc.com/pfi_tart_cherries_product.html

**Saccharomyces** · 10-20-2009, 06:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KopyKat

Mmmmmmm, sour cherries. Saccharomyces, how much do you reckon we will we need for a barrel?

http://www.petersonfarmsinc.com/pfi_tart_cherries_product.html

Two gallons of juice concentrate would be enough for the barrel by my calculations. I'm assuming we have 1.087 OG and then bump to 1.095 with 70 brix juice after the pedio have had time to do their thing (3-4 months) since the extra sugar will probably put them out of business.

If we don't get enough interest for a whole barrel I will roll ahead with a 5 gallon batch.

**Saccharomyces** · 10-20-2009, 06:41 AM

I'm thinking Rodenbach mash. 145*F for 40, raise to 162*F for 30... hopefully that will prevent the primary strain from attenuating too much, leaving more for the bugs to chew on. That's what I'm planning for my Flanders beers anyway...

KopyKat · 10-20-2009, 06:45 AM

Yeah, it would be nice to do a barrel but I am not sure if enough people would be into doing it. As I said on my PM, I would be in for 5 or 10 gallons. I would also be good for an equal share on the expenses of cherry juice, yeasts, etc.

**Saccharomyces** · 10-20-2009, 06:09 PM

Corey is going to host the Jack Daniel's barrel at his house and we have enough brewers committed from the Zealots that we are going to forge ahead with 60 gallons here in Austin area.