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Old 01-27-2011, 06:22 AM   #1
Nateo
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Default Candi syrup experiment, trying to substitute D2

Here is my D2 substitute recipe:

PPG: 1.046
(PPG estimate based on total batch weight of 515grams ~ 18.15oz)
SRM: ~40

3oz Dextrose (corn sugar)
13oz Sucrose (table sugar)
1c H2O
Bring to boil
Add 1/2tsp DAP
Add 1/2tsp KHCO3
Stir well to dissolve

Heat to 320*
Add 1/2c H2O
Stir well (be careful)

Heat to 310*
Add 1/2c H2O
Stir well
Pour in mason jar

It seems that the total amounts of DAP and of KHCO3 aren't terribly important. The interactions between them being too complex for me to fully understand, but even large changes in DAP and KHCO3 amounts produce only minor changes in the flavor profile. It seems that more dextrose will yield a darker/roastier product, and more sucrose will yield a sweeter, fruitier product. Temp also plays a role, but is less important than the dextrose/sucrose ratio.

Syrup H doesn't, by itself, taste as close to D2 as the above recipe, but it does produce a beer that's as good or better than any beer I've made with D2. I plan on doing more intensive testing on that in the future.

Credit to SnickASaurusRex, Randy Mosher, and Stan Hieronymus. I found SnickaSaurusRex's thread about making candi syrup. I based my experiments on his Sugar #5.

Hypothesis: The low caramelization temperature of fructose in table sugar was causing the syrup to caramelize excessively before there were sufficient Maillard reactions to get the dark chocolate flavors of the D2 syrup.

My recipes were made at 5280ft, so you may need to adjust temperatures for your elevation.

Here are the experiments I did to arrive at my finished recipe:

Round 1

Syrup A:
4oz Dextrose
1/4c H2O
Added 1/4tsp DAP, added @ 210*
Heated mixture to 260*
Added 1/4c H2O
Heated mixture to 250*
Added 1/4c H2O

Notes: Vanilla, caramel, dark cherries, raisins, plums

Syrup B:
4oz Dextrose
1/4c H2O
Added 1/4tsp DAP, added @ 210*
Heated mixture to 280*
Added 1/4c H2O
Heated mixture to 270*
Added 1/4c H2O

Notes: Dark fruit, light chocolate, toasted notes developing

Syrup C:
4oz Dextrose
1/4c H2O
Added 1/4tsp DAP, added @ 210*
Heated mixture to 300*
Added 1/4c H2O
Heated mixture to 290*
Added 1/4c H2O

Notes: Toasted marshmallows, light toffee flavor, stronger chocolate flavor than B, dark fruit

Syrup D:
4oz Dextrose
1/4c H2O
Added 1/4tsp DAP, added @ 210*
Heated mixture to 320*
Added 1/4c H2O
Heated mixture to 310*
Added 1/4c H2O

Notes: This batch started smoking once it reached 320*. Very bitter/acrid, burnt, cocoa, light dark fruit flavors.

Conclusions: Syrup A is very similar to the "Dark Candi D" syrup. Syrup D is the closest I have come to replicating the chocolate flavors of the D2 candi syrup, although it had an unpleasant acrid/burnt character D2 doesn't have. A mixture of D and C toned down the acridness and brought it a lot closer to D2, but with a fruitiness D2 lacks. A mix of all four syrups had a wonderfully complex flavor unlike anything I've had before.

Round 2

Syrup E:
4oz Dextrose
1/4c H2O
Added 1/4tsp DAP, added @ 210*
Heated mixture to 310*
Added 1/8c H2O
Heated mixture to 300*
Added 1/4c H2O

Notes: Somewhere between C and D, closer to D but still acrid

Syrup F:
4oz Dextrose
1/4c H2O
Added 1/4tsp DAP, added @ 210*
Heated mixture to 320*
Added 1/8c H2O
Heated mixture to 310*
Added 1/4c H2O
Added 1/2tsp CaCO3

Notes: Acridness subdued somewhat, allowing fuller chocolate flavors to come through. Very chalky, though.

Syrup G:
4oz Dextrose
1/4c H2O
Added 1/4tsp DAP, added @ 210*
Heated mixture to 240*
Added 1/8c H2O
Heated mixture to 240*
Added 1/8c H2O
Heated mixture to 240*
Added 1/8c H2O
Heated mixture to 240*
Added 1/4c H2O

Notes: Lots of soft caramel, light vanilla, some lighter fruit flavors, like white grapes.

Round 3

Syrup H:
4oz Dextrose
1/4c H2O
Added 1/8tsp DAP, added @ 210*
Heated mixture to 320*
Added 1/8c H2O
Heated mixture to 310*
Added 1/4c H2O
Added 1/8tsp KHCO3

Notes: Burnt sugar, cocoa powder, dark fruit, bitter, complex caramel

Syrup I:
4oz Dextrose
1/4c H2O
Added 1/6tsp DAP, added @ 210*
Heated mixture to 320*
Added 1/8c H2O
Heated mixture to 310*
Added 1/4c H2O
Added 1/8tsp KHCO3

Notes: Burnt sugar, complex caramel, light cocoa powder, light dark fruit, light bitter

Syrup J:
4oz Dextrose
1/4c H2O
Added 1/6tsp DAP, added @ 210*
Heated mixture to 320*
Added 1/8c H2O
Heated mixture to 310*
Added 1/4c H2O
Added 1/6tsp KHCO3

Notes: Same as I, but slightly less bitter

Syrup K:
4oz Dextrose
1/4c H2O
Added 1/4tsp DAP, added @ 210*
Heated mixture to 320*
Added 1/8c H2O
Heated mixture to 310*
Added 1/4c H2O
Added 1/4tsp KHCO3
Heated to 230*
Added 1/8c H2O

Notes: Cocoa, burnt sugar, light caramel, light dark fruit, 'medium' bitter

Round 4

Syrup L:
4oz Dextrose
1/4c H2O
Added 1/6tsp DAP, added @ 210*
Heated mixture to 320*
Added 1/8c H2O
Heated mixture to 310*
Added 1/4c H2O
Added 1/4tsp KHCO3

Notes: No appreciable difference between this syrup and syrup J.

Syrup M:
2oz Dextrose, 2oz Sucrose
1/4c H2O
Added 1/6tsp DAP, added @ 210*
Heated mixture to 320*
Added 1/8c H2O
Heated mixture to 300*
Added 1/4c H2O
Added 1/4tsp KHCO3
Notes: Starting smoking heavily at end of second heating. Similar taste to L, but with more dark fruit flavor, and less caramel flavor, slightly sweet with little bitterness, slight chalkiness.

Conclusions: The sucrose/dextrose blend led to an apparent decrease in complex caramel flavors, and increase in fruity flavors. I would say the most progress I've made so far is by alkalizing the finished product. Reducing acidity helped some of the subtler flavors to come through. Too much KHCO3 leads to an unpleasant flavor similar to chalk.

Round 5

Syrup N:
4oz Dextrose
1/4c H2O
Added 1/12tsp DAP, added @ 210*
Heated mixture to 280*
Added 1/8c H2O
Heated mixture to 300*
Added 1/8c H2O
Heated mixture to 320*
Added 1/6tsp KHCO3

Notes: Caramel, smooth and sweet. Some vanilla, faint cocoa on the finish.

Syrup O:
4oz Dextrose
1/4c H2O
Added 1/12tsp DAP, added @ 210*
Heated mixture to 260*
Added 1/8c H2O
Heated mixture to 280*
Added 1/8c H2O
Heated mixture to 300*
Added 1/6tsp KHCO3

Notes: Like N, without cocoa, and a little bit more vanilla.

Conclusion: It appears that the amount of DAP has more influence over the darkest flavors, like the burnt sugar and cocoa, than does temperature.

After sitting around for a few days, I got a small amount of "crystallization" from syrup N, and syrup O turned into a very thick paste. The other syrups I've made have remained liquid with no evidence of crystallization/precipitation.

Round 6

Syrup P:
4oz Dextrose
1/4c H2O
Added 1/4tsp DAP, added @ 210*
Heated mixture to 310*
Added 1/8c H2O
Heated mixture to 310*
Added 1/4c H2O

Notes: Like K, burnt sugar flavor, not much complexity.

Syrup Q:
4oz Dextrose
1/4c H2O
Added 1/4tsp DAP, added @ 210*
Heated mixture to 330*
Added 1/8c H2O
Heated mixture to 320*
Added 1/4c H2O

Notes: Very burnt flavor, unpalatable.

Conclusion: 330* is too hot for the syrup solution, 1/4tsp is too much for the DAP,

Round 7:
KHCO3 added at same time as DAP

Syrup R:
4oz Dextrose
1/4c H2O
Added 1/8tsp DAP, added @ 210*
Added 1/8tsp KHCO3
Heated mixture to 320*
Added 1/8c H2O
Heated mixture to 310*
Added 1/4c H2O

Notes: Like H, but a little softer/fuller

Syrup S:
4oz Dextrose
1/4c H2O
Added 1/8tsp DAP, added @ 210*
Added 1/4tsp KHCO3
Heated mixture to 320*
Added 1/8c H2O
Heated mixture to 310*
Added 1/4c H2O

Notes: More bitter than R

Syrup T:
4oz Sucrose
1/4c H2O
Added 1/8tsp DAP, added @ 210*
Added 1/8tsp KHCO3
Heated mixture to 320*
Added 1/8c H2O
Heated mixture to 310*
Added 1/4c H2O

Notes: Very close in flavor to D2, though not quite dark enough, and a little too sweet

Syrup U:
4oz Dextrose
1/4c H2O
Added 1/4tsp DAP, added @ 210*
Added 1/4tsp KHCO3
Heated mixture to 320*
Added 1/8c H2O
Heated mixture to 310*
Added 1/4c H2O

Notes: Too bitter

Syrup V:
2oz Dextrose, 2oz Sucrose
1/4c H2O
Added 1/4tsp DAP, added @ 210*
Added 1/4tsp KHCO3
Heated mixture to 320*
Added 1/8c H2O
Heated mixture to 310*
Added 1/4c H2O

Notes: Too bitter

Syrup W:
4oz Sucrose
1/4c H2O
Added 1/4tsp DAP, added @ 210*
Added 1/4tsp KHCO3
Heated mixture to 320*
Added 1/8c H2O
Heated mixture to 310*
Added 1/4c H2O

Notes: Similar to T, but too butterscotchy

Syrup X:
1oz Dextrose 3oz Sucrose
1/4c H2O
Added 1/8tsp DAP, added @ 210*
Added 1/8tsp KHCO3
Heated mixture to 320*
Added 1/8c H2O
Heated mixture to 310*
Added 1/4c H2O

Notes: Very close to D2, but slightly too bitter/roasted

Syrup Y:
1.33oz Dextrose, 2.66oz Sucrose
1/4c H2O
Added 1/8tsp DAP, added @ 210*
Added 1/8tsp KHCO3
Heated mixture to 320*
Added 1/8c H2O
Heated mixture to 310*
Added 1/4c H2O

Notes: Slightly too bitter

Conclusion: X and T are both very similar to D2, with the T being a little too light and X being a little too dark. A mixture of 3 parts X to 1 part T yielded a syrup almost indistinguishable from D2, with the D2 tasting a little bit stronger, but my syrups are slightly thinner. My next step is to make the following full-size batch, which should approximate the mixed syrups.

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Old 01-27-2011, 07:06 AM   #2
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Keep up the good work! It's great seeing these experiments in using different sugars.

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Old 01-27-2011, 11:51 AM   #3
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I'll tell ya that its not possible on the homebrewer scale but you'll still make good syrup just not D2.

Do they boil in low pressure or high pressure? just some of the possible methods that are done in commercial scale.

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Old 01-27-2011, 12:17 PM   #4
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Lower pressure would mean lower boiling points. The reverse is also true and is how a pressure cooker works. If they increase the boiling temp, they may be able to keep the fluid liquid longer but it would still smoke. If they decrease the boiling point, they may be able to increase the maillard reactions thereby creating flavors normally associated with higher temps but at a lower temps. There are ways to boil at lower pressures at home. It may be worth going to "the Google" to find out.

Good luck.

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Old 01-27-2011, 01:16 PM   #5
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Old 01-27-2011, 02:57 PM   #6
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thanks for the additional experiments! good stuff! As you know, I am on this quest too. I've been thinking about pressure cookers or even trying it in the oven. What if I can hold at 300 for 30 minutes? thoughts? Right now I'm sort of shooting in the dark based on other's knowledge

Does anyone have any good science or cooking references that might shed some light? ...or allow me to experiment in more focused ways?

seems like this should not be an impossible task...just a matter of cracking the code...

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Old 01-27-2011, 03:07 PM   #7
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Maybe even consider a different method for inversion? Phosphoric Acid? Citric?

There is another oddball ingredient listed in Moshers book to start the conversion. I forget what it was. Used for leavening, I think. Hard to find but I was able to find it at a Greek specialty grocer. Just can't recall what it was.

I have done some syrups using phosphoric acid as the catalyst to the inversion and they all came out perfectly.

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Old 01-27-2011, 03:30 PM   #8
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Houblon: You could say the same thing about cloning beers, yet people still try to do it. Is it a fool's errand? Maybe. But I bet I can come up with something interesting.

jpoder: The issue you'll run into is that as the sugar solution concentrates (water evaporates) the temperature of the mixture will rise. The easiest way to keep it at 300 would be to add a tbsp of water when the temp starts rising. But it would take a lot of tablespoons.

Gila: In this particular case, I was using dextrose, which is D-glucose. Glucose is a monosaccharide, so there's nothing to invert. Afaik you can only "invert" poly-or-disaccharides. Also, the ingredient in Mosher's book is just a different source for nitrogen. It's a leavening source for bread, but I'm only interested in the nitrogen from the ammonia.

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Old 01-27-2011, 04:26 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nateo View Post
Gila: In this particular case, I was using dextrose, which is D-glucose. Glucose is a monosaccharide, so there's nothing to invert. Afaik you can only "invert" poly-or-disaccharides. Also, the ingredient in Mosher's book is just a different source for nitrogen. It's a leavening source for bread, but I'm only interested in the nitrogen from the ammonia.
Whoops. Missed the Dextrose point. despite the fact that it's everywher in your OP.
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Old 01-27-2011, 05:10 PM   #10
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Isn't D2 'allegedly' made with just beet sugar and heat? No acid/nitrogen, just sucrose and heat.

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