Bread Flavor in Paulaner Helles and Bitburger?

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jrhammonds

jrhammonds

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I'll make this as simple as I can.

I've been brewing all-grain for 10 years, lagers for 2. I've recently become obsessed with trying to replicate the explicit BREAD flavor that you find in a Paulaner Helles or a Bitburger. I'm not talking about the generic bread/malt flavor that many people talk about in Munich/Vienna/Maris etc... I'm referring to that "I just took a bite of the crust of a french baguette" bread flavor. (Paulaner Helles and Bitburger have it; Spaten, Czech Pils, and other continental Pils's do not--just to clarify).

Currently, I'm on my 5th batch of German Helles. I only change a small variable each batch so I can isolate this issue.
As it stands my recipe has been a tweaked verson of this:

91% German Pils (Best Malz)
6% Munich 9L (Weyerman) (but I've also done Light Munich 6L)
1% Melanoidin (Wyerman)

So far.. fantastic beers! But no french crusty baguette flavor. I know some use Durst Malt, some Weyerman. I've done triple decoctions before with my Czech Pils recipe, but not this guy; but I can't help but wonder WHAT MALT has this distinct flavor. Is it a brand? Another malt? Decoction?

If you know exactly what I'm talking about, help a brother out! Thanks!
 
I think it may require more melanoidin or doing a decoction to get more melanoidins. Bitburger and the like have a super simple grist so it is probably more dependent on process.
 
Thanks for the suggestion! I know how light and simple Bitburger is, but yet sooo bready.
 
1% melanoidin is not very much. I've used anywhere between 3-5ish. Admittedly they weren't for that style of beer though.
 
Per definition, a Helles is made from either Munich malt ("Münchner Helles") or Vienna malt ("Wiener Helles"). Could it be that you're using too much pilsner in your grist?
 
The BJCP style guide for '1D. Munich Helles' says all Pilsner malt. It's the '5A. Maibock/Helles Bock' that calls for Munich & Vienna malts.
Code: 
 1D. Munich Helles

Aroma: Pleasantly grainy-sweet, [B]clean Pils malt aroma dominates[/B].
 Low to moderately-low spicy noble hop aroma, and a low background note
 of DMS ([B]from Pils malt[/B]). No esters or diacetyl.

Appearance: Medium yellow to pale gold, clear, with a creamy white head.

Flavor: Slightly sweet, malty profile. Grain and Pils malt flavors dominate,
 with a low to medium-low hop bitterness that supports the malty palate.
 Low to moderately-low spicy noble hop flavor. Finish and aftertaste remain
 malty. Clean, no fruity esters, no diacetyl.

Mouthfeel: Medium body, medium carbonation, smooth maltiness with no
 trace of astringency.

Overall Impression: [B]Malty but fully attenuated Pils malt showcase[/B].

Comments: Unlike Pilsner but like its cousin, Munich Dunkel, Helles is a
 malt-accentuated beer that is not overly sweet, but rather focuses on malt
 flavor with underlying hop bitterness in a supporting role.

History: Created in Munich in 1895 at the Spaten brewery by Gabriel
 Sedlmayr to compete with Pilsner-style beers.

Ingredients: Moderate carbonate water,[B] Pilsner malt[/B], German noble
 hop varieties.

Vital Statistics: 	OG: 1.045 – 1.051
IBUs: 16 – 22 	FG: 1.008 – 1.012
SRM: 3 – 5 	ABV: 4.7 – 5.4%

Commercial Examples: Weihenstephaner Original, Hacker-Pschorr Münchner
 Gold, Bürgerbräu Wolznacher Hell Naturtrüb, Mahr's Hell, [B]Paulaner Premium
 Lager[/B], Spaten Premium Lager, Stoudt's Gold Lager

I would believe a decoction mash, low hopping rates, the higher carbonate water would help differentiate it from a Czech or German Pils. If that's not enough perhaps the use of a malt-accentuating lager yeast would help.
 
A few months have passed; still no "french baguette flavor;" my most recent attempts included a triple decoction with appropriate rests. My conclusion, so far, is in the maltsters. I've learned that each brewery has either a maltster, on hand, at the brewery, or uses outsourced maltsters that deal only with particular breweries. So, as it stands, unless I want to pick up malting, it looks like I'll continue making good Helleses (Helli?) (without that explicit bread flavor) and continue purchasing Paulaner Helles when I need to. Cheers all!
 
I'll second yeast choice and also add try some victory/biscuit malt.

I wonder if a longer diacetyl rest might give you some more bready flavors from the yeast. Rather than just a day, maybe do 3-4 days.

I have an American Lager lagering that I did a 4 day diacetyl rest with. I needed to put a new epoxy liner in my ferm. chamber (3 day cure) and my lagering fridge was full, so I just did a long diacetyl rest. The beer will be ready in about 3 weeks - it is my house beer so I know it well and will know if the longer D-rest resulted in different flavors.
 
I was going to suggest some Biscuit but pjj2ba beat me to the punch. You only need the tiniest amount to get the flavor you want... say, 2-5%. Biscuit is the secret ingredient in my house bitter and folks love it.
 
jrhammonds said:
Thanks for all the advice guys. I may bump up the CaCO3 and decoct as well.
Click to expand...

I just noticed this.

I don't know if you were using chalk in the mash previous to this, but if so, instead of "bumping up" the chalk- leave it out! There isn't any reason to add chalk to a mash, particularly when the pH is probably erring on too-high, not too low, and since chalk doesn't work in the mash anyway it's pointless and may have a big negative impact on the flavor of the beer.

I do like the idea of victory malt, but even hometoasting some base malt will make a nice difference.
 
This is an old thread that I just found, but I have noticed the exact same thing, and have been trying to duplicate that fresh, "bready" flavour. I wonder, @jrhammonds, if you have discovered how to duplicate this?

I personally believe that it is the malt itself. They likely malt and roast their own barley and add it when it's quite fresh.

I have been playing around with trying to duplicate a Paulaner Oktoberfest, and have not come close to the fresh flavour.

In my current version (just undergoing a diacetyl rest), instead of adding Munich malt, I roasted Pilsner malt in the oven, left it for a week or so, and added it. I'm hoping that might give me that fresh, bready flavour.
 
Bottoms_Up said:
This is an old thread that I just found, but I have noticed the exact same thing, and have been trying to duplicate that fresh, "bready" flavour. I wonder, @jrhammonds, if you have discovered how to duplicate this?

I personally believe that it is the malt itself. They likely malt and roast their own barley and add it when it's quite fresh.

I have been playing around with trying to duplicate a Paulaner Oktoberfest, and have not come close to the fresh flavour.

In my current version (just undergoing a diacetyl rest), instead of adding Munich malt, I roasted Pilsner malt in the oven, left it for a week or so, and added it. I'm hoping that might give me that fresh, bready flavour.
Click to expand...

Check out **********************.... but beware of the rabbit hole!
 
cyberbackpacker said:
Check out **********************.... but beware of the rabbit hole!
Click to expand...
Of course there is no way a homebrewer can ever hope to duplicate the sophistication of a commercial brewery, but our hope is to come up with something reasonably close without all the expense and sophistication. Otherwise, why bother homebrewing at all?
 
Definitely check out **********************

German Beers are usually pretty simple recipes, executed with a level of scientific precision that is beginning to become much easier to replicate at homebrew scale.
 

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