Happy HolidaySs Giveaway - Winners Re-Re-Drawn - 24 hours to Claim!

Get your HBT Growlers, Shirts and Membership before the Rush!


Home Brew Forums > Home Brewing Beer > Recipes/Ingredients > Bread Flavor in Paulaner Helles and Bitburger?
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 12-13-2012, 04:38 PM   #1
jrhammonds
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Oneonta, New York
Posts: 99
Liked 1 Times on 1 Posts
Likes Given: 1

Default Bread Flavor in Paulaner Helles and Bitburger?

I'll make this as simple as I can.

I've been brewing all-grain for 10 years, lagers for 2. I've recently become obsessed with trying to replicate the explicit BREAD flavor that you find in a Paulaner Helles or a Bitburger. I'm not talking about the generic bread/malt flavor that many people talk about in Munich/Vienna/Maris etc... I'm referring to that "I just took a bite of the crust of a french baguette" bread flavor. (Paulaner Helles and Bitburger have it; Spaten, Czech Pils, and other continental Pils's do not--just to clarify).

Currently, I'm on my 5th batch of German Helles. I only change a small variable each batch so I can isolate this issue.
As it stands my recipe has been a tweaked verson of this:

91% German Pils (Best Malz)
6% Munich 9L (Weyerman) (but I've also done Light Munich 6L)
1% Melanoidin (Wyerman)

So far.. fantastic beers! But no french crusty baguette flavor. I know some use Durst Malt, some Weyerman. I've done triple decoctions before with my Czech Pils recipe, but not this guy; but I can't help but wonder WHAT MALT has this distinct flavor. Is it a brand? Another malt? Decoction?

If you know exactly what I'm talking about, help a brother out! Thanks!

__________________

Primary 1: Foreign Extra Stout
Secondary: Summer 08 Cider
Bottled: Imperial Red Rye Ale, Bourbon Oak Strong Ale

jrhammonds is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 12-14-2012, 01:40 AM   #2
ghpeel
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Gainesville, FL
Posts: 1,216
Liked 21 Times on 19 Posts
Likes Given: 2

Default

Subscribed! I am also curious about getting that flavor just right.

__________________

=============================================

Kegged: Dunkelweizen
Primary: American Pale Ale

ghpeel is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 12-15-2012, 01:14 AM   #3
jrhammonds
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Oneonta, New York
Posts: 99
Liked 1 Times on 1 Posts
Likes Given: 1

Default

No one?

__________________

Primary 1: Foreign Extra Stout
Secondary: Summer 08 Cider
Bottled: Imperial Red Rye Ale, Bourbon Oak Strong Ale

jrhammonds is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 12-15-2012, 01:45 AM   #4
Patirck
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Glendale, CA
Posts: 750
Liked 12 Times on 12 Posts
Likes Given: 1

Default

I think it may require more melanoidin or doing a decoction to get more melanoidins. Bitburger and the like have a super simple grist so it is probably more dependent on process.

__________________
Patirck is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 12-21-2012, 11:51 PM   #5
jrhammonds
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Oneonta, New York
Posts: 99
Liked 1 Times on 1 Posts
Likes Given: 1

Default

Thanks for the suggestion! I know how light and simple Bitburger is, but yet sooo bready.

__________________

Primary 1: Foreign Extra Stout
Secondary: Summer 08 Cider
Bottled: Imperial Red Rye Ale, Bourbon Oak Strong Ale

jrhammonds is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 12-22-2012, 10:19 AM   #6
StMarcos
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Sebastopol, CA
Posts: 956
Liked 29 Times on 24 Posts
Likes Given: 1

Default

I want to know too, and know that character that you're referring to. I really like it.

__________________
StMarcos is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 12-22-2012, 03:53 PM   #7
Xpertskir
Feedback Score: 6 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Morgantown, Wv
Posts: 2,079
Liked 413 Times on 268 Posts
Likes Given: 21

Default

1% melanoidin is not very much. I've used anywhere between 3-5ish. Admittedly they weren't for that style of beer though.

__________________
Xpertskir is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 12-22-2012, 06:30 PM   #8
drchris83
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 137
Liked 15 Times on 13 Posts

Default

Per definition, a Helles is made from either Munich malt ("Münchner Helles") or Vienna malt ("Wiener Helles"). Could it be that you're using too much pilsner in your grist?

__________________
drchris83 is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 12-22-2012, 10:07 PM   #9
Beezer94
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Harmony, PA
Posts: 583
Liked 15 Times on 13 Posts
Likes Given: 33

Default

The BJCP style guide for '1D. Munich Helles' says all Pilsner malt. It's the '5A. Maibock/Helles Bock' that calls for Munich & Vienna malts.

Code:
 1D. Munich Helles

Aroma: Pleasantly grainy-sweet, clean Pils malt aroma dominates.
 Low to moderately-low spicy noble hop aroma, and a low background note
 of DMS (from Pils malt). No esters or diacetyl.

Appearance: Medium yellow to pale gold, clear, with a creamy white head.

Flavor: Slightly sweet, malty profile. Grain and Pils malt flavors dominate,
 with a low to medium-low hop bitterness that supports the malty palate.
 Low to moderately-low spicy noble hop flavor. Finish and aftertaste remain
 malty. Clean, no fruity esters, no diacetyl.

Mouthfeel: Medium body, medium carbonation, smooth maltiness with no
 trace of astringency.

Overall Impression: Malty but fully attenuated Pils malt showcase.

Comments: Unlike Pilsner but like its cousin, Munich Dunkel, Helles is a
 malt-accentuated beer that is not overly sweet, but rather focuses on malt
 flavor with underlying hop bitterness in a supporting role.

History: Created in Munich in 1895 at the Spaten brewery by Gabriel
 Sedlmayr to compete with Pilsner-style beers.

Ingredients: Moderate carbonate water, Pilsner malt, German noble
 hop varieties.

Vital Statistics: 	OG: 1.045 – 1.051
IBUs: 16 – 22 	FG: 1.008 – 1.012
SRM: 3 – 5 	ABV: 4.7 – 5.4%

Commercial Examples: Weihenstephaner Original, Hacker-Pschorr Münchner
 Gold, Bürgerbräu Wolznacher Hell Naturtrüb, Mahr's Hell, Paulaner Premium
 Lager, Spaten Premium Lager, Stoudt's Gold Lager
I would believe a decoction mash, low hopping rates, the higher carbonate water would help differentiate it from a Czech or German Pils. If that's not enough perhaps the use of a malt-accentuating lager yeast would help.
__________________
RDWHAHB
Add more hops! Always add more hops
Beezer94 is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 12-22-2012, 10:57 PM   #10
raysmithtx
HBT_LIFETIMESUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Fort Worth, Texas
Posts: 256
Liked 57 Times on 34 Posts
Likes Given: 4

Default

Bjcp shows a bitburger as a German Pilsner 2A

__________________
raysmithtx is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Reply



Quick Reply
Message:
Options
Thread Tools


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Helles Belles flavor question Huskysibe General Beer Discussion 6 11-09-2011 07:56 PM
Bitburger Clone LagerLover24 All Grain & Partial Mash Brewing 5 06-15-2010 04:03 PM
flavor crust of bread docantonio Recipes/Ingredients 5 12-29-2008 12:19 AM
Bread flavor in my Kolsch - possible causes? reshp1 General Techniques 6 02-20-2008 11:46 PM
Bitburger Premium msmith81 Commercial Brew Discussion 6 03-06-2007 01:12 PM



Newest Threads

LATEST SPONSOR DEALS