Black Heart Cascadian Dark Ale

I just discovered this style and immediately moved it to the top of the order.

Batch Size: 5.5 Gallons
Boil Volume: 7.0 Gallons
AA: 75%
OG: 1.073
SRM: 47
IBU: 72

12# 2 Row
1# Crystal 60
.25# Crystal 120
.5# De-bittered roasted barley
.75# Black patent
.33# Chocolate Malt

Mashed @ 155 for 60 minutes. 1.2:1 grist to water ratio.

90 minute boil
Whole leaf hops

.5 oz Centennial (75)
1 oz Centennial (60)
1 oz Cascade (30)
1 oz Cascade (15)
Dry hop w/ .5 oz Centinnial and 2 oz Cascade

Going for a pungent citrus aroma and flavor to be complimented by the mild roastiness of the de-bittered and chocolate malts. I was having trouble getting the color dark enough in ProMash. Does anyone think that the roasted malts could be too pungent? Should I decrease either the chocolate or debittered and up the black patent?

I haven't brewed one of these types of beers yet, but I'm compiling a recipe of my own. To be honest, the thing that stands out the most in your recipe is the Black Patent. .75# seems like an awful lot. I would increase the de-bittered roast barley and lose the Black Patent altogether. If you want to reduce the flavor impact of the dark malts, you could add them later in the mash.

I think most of these beers get their color from debittered malts used in small numbers late in the mash: basically take an IPA recipe and add a touch of coloring malts. Right now, that thing looks more like a stout/porter with a lot of hops.

I got great results from mine. It's essentially 2-row pale (90% of the grist), debittered black (6.5%), and crystal 90 (3.5%). I am working on my second batch (since the first keg was polished in about 3 weeks) which will increase the debittered black to 10% of the grist, replace the 2-row pale with marris otter (82%), keep the crystal 90 (5%), and add carapils (3%). And I mashed my debittered black the entire time (60 minutes).

I was adding the black patent for color at the end of the mash. I was going to use the De-bittered and Chocolate malts for the whole mash like jgourd did, I want the roasted characters to come thru, and I feel like the proportions i used them in will make it evident but not over powering.

So are y'all suggesting to do away with the black patent and add some more de-bittered roasted barley at the end of the mash?

I think the potential flavor impact from the black patent could push the beer more towards a stout, even if it's added late in the mash. I find black patent to have kind of a burnt flavor that may not be what you're looking for. If you stick with the debittered black, you should be able to get the color and some of the roast character you're looking for without being overpowering.

It was always my understanding that black patent would impart intense color with minimal flavor impact (per AHS website).

zgardener said:

It was always my understanding that black patent would impart intense color with minimal flavor impact (per AHS website).

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Quite the opposite, black patent (especially that much, even at the end of the mash) will give you huge roasty, astringent, even tar like flavor in your beer. Typically the color of this style is achieved through debittered malts and maybe some choco. Your recipe looks good, except up the debittered and ditch the black malt. If you brew it as it stands, to me it looks overhopped american porter. For reference, a fairly standard grain bill for the style

13# two row
1# C40 (whatever crystal you like)
.25# choco (optional, but will give it an enhanced roasty edge)
12 oz dehusked carafa (2 or 3)
dry , neutral yeast

You basically make an IPA and add debittered malt to color, and if you wish, a touch of roasted malts for flavor...restraint though.

If you must use up that black malt, I would cold steep it and add the liquid to the boil

Thanks Permo, I'll take that into consideration, can't brew this up until I keg a couple of brews, and I cant keg until get my CO2 regulator in the mail (hopefully Wednesday), so I'll have the week to work on this, I'll keep y'all posted on the progress/results!

I am brewing up the recipe I posted, with chinook, willamete and amarillo this week too...should be good times.

I am in the same situation as you, my kegs are all full and my fermenters all have beer in them. I guess it is a good problem to have.

I have a version of one of these in the fermenter now...
I used Columbus and Citra hops. With 60L English Crystal Malt, 120L Crystal Malt, Carafa Malt II, Roast Barley (it was an extract recipe, I steeped those grains at 170 for 30 min)

permo said:

I am brewing up the recipe I posted, with chinook, willamete and amarillo this week too...should be good times.

I am in the same situation as you, my kegs are all full and my fermenters all have beer in them. I guess it is a good problem to have.

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Let me know how it comes out, and yes, a fantastic problem to have (that may still be an understatement)

I just made a black ipa and that carafa is some strong stuff. I used 1# for a 11# batch--it's good, but the coffee and burnt flavor is a bit over the top for the style.

Mine tastes like a hoppy version of a smoky Porter. Next batch I make I am going to scale back to 1/2# of carafa.

Good stuff, just not in the proportions I used it.

shroomzofdoom said:

I just made a black ipa and that carafa is some strong stuff. I used 1# for a 11# batch--it's good, but the coffee and burnt flavor is a bit over the top for the style.

Mine tastes like a hoppy version of a smoky Porter. Next batch I make I am going to scale back to 1/2# of carafa.

Good stuff, just not in the proportions I used it.

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Did you use dehusked carafaa? I am assuming you used the regular stuff...that would sure make your beer roasty.

Yeah, the de-bittered is way toned down, I'm thinking about getting rid of the Black Patent all together, heres the new grain bill I worked up while pretending to look busy at work:

13 # 2 Row
1 # Crystal 60
.25 # Crystal 120
1 # De-bittered
.25# Chocolate
.5 # De-bittered (last 10 min of mash for color)

I brewed up a CDA from a NotherBrewer.com all-grain kit a few months back. It really came out fantastic. All the attributes of a good IPA with a roasty malt finish.

MASH INGREDIENTS
11.5-lbs.-Rahr-2-row-pale
0.5-lbs.-Briess-Caramel-80L
0.25-lbs.-Weyermann-Dehusked-Carafa-III
0.25-lbs.-Simpsons-Chocolate-malt

BOIL ADDITIONS & TIMES
1-oz.-Summit-(60-min)
1-oz.-Simcoe-(15-min)
1-oz.-Centennial-(10-min)
1-oz.-Cascade-(5-min)
1-oz.-Amarillo-(0-min)
1-lb-Corn-sugar-(0-min)

Dry Hopped
1 oz. Ahtanum

(Ignore the fact that the URL has the word extract in it, dunno what they did there)
http://www.northernbrewer.com/brewing/black-ipa-extract-kit-2.html

Since I'm at work I've been using TastyBrew for my recipe calculations, did you really get it as dark as the photo on the NB website with only .5# of the dark grains? Dont know if TastyBrew is off, for the bill i just listed it only gave me an SRM of 38, I'd like 45 or higher...

It came out beautifully black. I've uploaded some pics here, http://d.pr/pRAJ and here, http://d.pr/N5m6

I couldn't guess an SRM for you though.

Mine for this newest version:


And a pic of my last one:

permo said:

Did you use dehusked carafaa? I am assuming you used the regular stuff...that would sure make your beer roasty.

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Yeah, the package says 'Dehusked Carafa II'...it's good, kinda like 'the Starbucks of beers' but not what I was shooting for...

I can still make my beer black with .5 of the Carafa II, so I may try that next time.

zgardener said:

Since I'm at work I've been using TastyBrew for my recipe calculations, did you really get it as dark as the photo on the NB website with only .5# of the dark grains? Dont know if TastyBrew is off, for the bill i just listed it only gave me an SRM of 38, I'd like 45 or higher...

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The NorthernBrewer site has Dehusked Carafa III listed as 490-560°L. Is that what TastyBrew has it as?

shroomzofdoom said:

Yeah, the package says 'Dehusked Carafa II'...it's good, kinda like 'the Starbucks of beers' but not what I was shooting for...

I can still make my beer black with .5 of the Carafa II, so I may try that next time.

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AHS doesn't carry Carafa of any kind, the de-bittered roasted barley is pretty much the same stuff, right?

RayKrueger said:

The NorthernBrewer site has Dehusked Carafa III listed as 490-560°L. Is that what TastyBrew has it as?

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It's a web-based calculator, so can't really see or adjust the darkness values. I've been meaning to throw it into ProMash and see what is spits out. The de-bittered black that I'm using is 500L - 600L so i think that will give me the color I'm after.

Either way, I think that I've pretty much got it down. I'm going to try to brew this as a quick turn around beer, so hopefully I can provide some updates on the taste in the next three weeks or so.

Sounds awesome! I'm definitely going to brew this CDA again. I've only been brewing for about 8 months or so, but that CDA is the best thing we've brewed so far I think.

zgardener said:

AHS doesn't carry Carafa of any kind, the de-bittered roasted barley is pretty much the same stuff, right?

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I don't know for sure. But I do know that debittering usually means removing the burnt husks...the wiki for these malts shows them both as pretty durn black. Roasted Barley is 300 SRM and Carafa II is 412 SRM...so they proabably have some differences:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/wiki/index.php/Malts_Chart

zgardener said:

AHS doesn't carry Carafa of any kind, the de-bittered roasted barley is pretty much the same stuff, right?

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The debittered black they carry is the same as carafa special. I've used it and I don't notice the difference.

Awesome. Thanks for all your comments. Going to AHS today and getting the starter going on Wed. Sunday brew day is fast approaching!

Final Grain Bill:

12# American 2 Row
1.25# Crystal 60
.5# Chocolate Malt
.75# De-bittered Black Barley (I was calling it roasted barley, it is in fact black barley, 500L - 600L)

OG: 1.071
FG: 1.016 (WLP001 with large starter, assuming 78% attenuation)
SRM: 40
ABV: 7.0

Hop schedule will stay the same as the original post, this is my first go with whole leaf hops, any suggestions for those? would it make things easier to use a hop bag, or just toss them in the boil?

Just pitched my starter into an empty dead guy growler, kegged my AHS Cluster Fuggle IPA last night, will keg my Short Bus ESB on Saturday, and rack my Horny Steer Amber to secondary for dry hopping and crashing, thus opening up a primary for the Black Heart, we're set for Sunday!
It's gonna be a fantastic weekend!

Damn you're a busy beaver! heh
My brothers and I will be brewing up an Irish Red Ale this Sunday and finishing off the last of the CDA I've got around here in the process

RayKrueger said:

Damn you're a busy beaver! heh
My brothers and I will be brewing up an Irish Red Ale this Sunday and finishing off the last of the CDA I've got around here in the process

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Haha, yeah, I've been keeping myself busy
I've been trying to get my lil bro into brewing but he just doesn't seem interested, but he is getting into good beers, thanks in part to the convenience store down from his apt. They apparently carry every bottled beer available in Texas, one reason to visit him more often...

Brewed it up this weekend, hit OG spot on and it smells amazing. This is the first brew were I did a decent sized starter (1/2 gallon), lag time was only 3 hours. Another couple weeks and I'll hit this with 2 oz of whole leaf Cascade and .5 oz whole leaf Centennial.

Side note, while at AHS I was looking at their malt chart and it mentioned that midnight roasted wheat would do well in a black IPA, has anyone tried this?

3 weeks in primary, racked to 2ndary a few days ago. Nice roasty notes, good hop presence, not as bitter as I was hoping, but still tasty. Dry hopping with generous amounts of whole leaf Cascade and Centennial.

Keg on Saturday, naturally carbonate with 2.25 grams of corn sugar. I'm trying to give this a little time to age so the roasted characters can mellow a bit, was a little harsh on the finish when I took my hydrometer sample. I'll definitely give this one another go, but probably with pellet hops and about 75% of the hops within the last 30 minutes and a large addition at flame-out.

zgardener said:

Side note, while at AHS I was looking at their malt chart and it mentioned that midnight roasted wheat would do well in a black IPA, has anyone tried this?

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I bought 2 lbs of the Midnight Wheat from AHS and used 1# in a Black IPA/CDA I brewed on 11/24. I am going to move it to secondary and add 3 ounces of dry hops this weekend. I'll take a hydro sample and give it a taste. In about a week I'll keg it and soon after I will report on how the Midnight Wheat affects the flavor. For my recipe, I used a recent IPA recipe that came out excellent and threw in 1# Midnight Wheat to blacken it up.

I may look at using the midnight wheat, from my experience darker wheats tend to come out smoother and more malty than roasted barley.
Let me know how it comes out!

Doog_Si_Reeb said:

I haven't brewed one of these types of beers yet, but I'm compiling a recipe of my own. To be honest, the thing that stands out the most in your recipe is the Black Patent. .75# seems like an awful lot. I would increase the de-bittered roast barley and lose the Black Patent altogether. If you want to reduce the flavor impact of the dark malts, you could add them later in the mash.

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I used debittered black patent, and only 1/8 pound.

zgardener said:

I may look at using the midnight wheat, from my experience darker wheats tend to come out smoother and more malty than roasted barley.
Let me know how it comes out!

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I took a hydro sample this last weekend before adding 3 oz. of dry hops to the brew. I could detect a subtle roastiness from the midnight wheat. It was a very different flavor than I am used to with Roasted Barley. I'm planning to keg the batch early next week. I'll probably get it on the CO2, but I'll reserve judgment for at least a few weeks. It's relatively high-ABV so it will need some time to mellow. I'll post back on how it tastes in a week, and again in a month or so.

Just kegged this sucker and took a sample, after 14 days on 2 oz on whole Cascade and 1 oz of whole Centennial it is much more mellow with an intense but pleasant punch in the finish. Naturally carbing this one so it can mellow out a little further and a slightly creamier mouth feel to balance out the 7.1% abv.
Can't wait to taste it in another 2,4,6,8 weeks!

bovineblitz said:

I used debittered black patent, and only 1/8 pound.

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I've made a few CDAs now. both times I used debittered black. I have increased it in my latest batch to 1.5 lbs (about 10% of the grain bill). IBUs are about 80 and it's pretty well balanced and yummy. Won second place in a local club competition.

jgourd said:

I've made a few CDAs now. both times I used debittered black. I have increased it in my latest batch to 1.5 lbs (about 10% of the grain bill). IBUs are about 80 and it's pretty well balanced and yummy. Won second place in a local club competition.

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Jgourd, would you mind sharing your recipe?

For this batch, I think the roastyness is just about right, I may up the chocolate by a couple of ounces, maybe an additional 4 oz of de-bittered black, but its probably not necessary.

Just read a one pager written by the head brewer at Russian River about making exceptional hoppy beers and warned of high % of crystal malts with American hops (suggested use <5%), this batch uses 8.6% crystal, next go 'round I'll knock that % down and compare.

My latest recipe: