Black Butte XXI Clone Anyone??

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FastEddie

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Has anyone started working on a clone recipe for Deschute's newest birthday brew? I have a few ideas but wanted to check around first.
 
Cant help you but Im in to see what you come up with. Loved this beer when I tried it, but $12 a bottle is a bit much
 
They just did a clone of Black Butte Porter on Jamil's "Can you Brew it" show. It was evidently a spot on clone. Listen to the episode and they talk with the head brewer from Deschutes about XXI. It is basically a doubled version of the original with some subtle changes which they discuss. Can't remember what they were right now, but if you check it out, it should get you pretty close.

Good luck,
 
Okay, here's a silly question then. Would the "doubled-up version of Black Butte Porter," as Deschute's describes XXI, really be made by doubling everything (except of course the water)? Or, would there need to be some adjustments? Looks like BBP is 5.2% ABV and 30 IBU's while XXI is 11% ABV and 55 IBU's. Pretty close to double but not exactly. Any thoughts on that? Thanks again.

D
 
Doubling the recipe will get you close. Then you can make your adjustments if desired. If you wnat the exact same ABV and IBU's I would adjust up on my base malt and up the first hop addition to come in line with the amounts they list.
 
Black Butte XXI is also blended with some oak aged XXI. (30% I think). You'd have to duplicate that with oak chips or a separate oaked batch.
 
I'm looking for some constructive feedback on this preliminary recipe. First, two disclaimers: 1) I am probably at the point in my brewing when I could start doing some full mash brews but lack the equipment right now. As such, this is an extract recipe with a specialty grain steep. 2) This recipe (or a slightly altered one if it turns out that way) is intended to provide a benchmark to be fine tuned to a respectable clone. I'll probably age it considerably longer (as well as substitute oak cubes for the chips) once I get good working start. With that said, here is what I have so far...

Batch Size: 5 gallons

Steep the following at 165*F for 30 mins then strain and sparge:

12 oz Chocolate Malt
12 oz Black Patent Malt
16 oz Honey Malt
16 oz Crystal Malt (10L)
8 oz Toasted Barley

Add to:

11 lbs Light LME
2 lbs Light DME

Top off with water to 4 gallons for 60 minute boil. (I have only a 20 qt pot so I max out at 4 gals to avoid boil-overs. Top off with 5 gals if your equipment allows.)

Hop bill/schedule:

2.5 oz Galena (60 mins)
1.25 oz Cascade (30 mins)
1.25 oz Tettnanger (5 mins)

Yeast: Wyeast 1338 - Euro Ale

Ferment in glass for 10-12 days.

Transfer to glass for an additional 12-14 days with the following additions:

8 oz cocao nibs
1.5 oz each Sumatra / Ethiopia Sidamo - Course Grind
0.5 oz Med Roast American Oak Chips soaked in premium bourbon (Woodford Reserve, Blanton's, Basil Hayden's, etc.) during initial fermentation.

Prime, bottle, and condition for an additional 10+ days.

This recipe calculates out to about 56 IBU's and just a shade over 11% ABV which is close to the 55 IBU / 11% ABV of the actual XXI. Like I said, any constructive insight would be great! Thanks again.

D
 
Way too much on all of your specialty malts.

I can't offer much more, but if you follow your specialty bill, you'll have a rough beer. As a rough guess, I'd say cut everything in half malt wise.

Also, even with that, if you are using a lot of specialty grains consider steeping in multiple sacks. When I made a beer with a ton of specialty grains, the grain "ball" was so big that the inner grains never really benefited from the steep.
 
I wish I could be more helpful, but I have one heck of a buzz right now. I can only point out what my beer induced stupor allows me too.

I still have a bottle of XXI, and I'm almost in the mood to drink it, which would probably only make things worse.
 
The specialty malts were simply doubled from an original recipe clone as were the base fermentables. If I cut the specialty malt bill in half I would be back to the original recipe. At that ratio, will they be prominent with the increase in malt / abv? As far as the LME and DME (which were nearly doubled from the original BBP recipe), should I sub some of that out for dextrose? Worrying a bit about the sweetness. BBP is not exactly dry, but don't want to over do it.

D
 
well I listened to the podcast as well, and from what I remember Eddie you pretty much have nailed exactly what the brewmaster from Deschutes said. Go for it and let us know how it turns out! :)
 
Are you sure on you hop bill ? I plugged it in to Beer tools and something doesn't jive.
I get bitterness of 180.

If all it is is a doubling of BBP, the clone uses .6 oz of Galena ,25 of of Cascade and .25 oz of Tet.
 
Hmm. Not sure. BeerAlchemy calculates 55.3 IBU's. I assumed the high amount of bittering hops called for was to offset the partial boil (4 gallons) and the high malt content. However, I fully admit that this is the first time I've used any brewing software and may have made a mistake in entering something somewhere along the way.

So there seems to be some question about the hop content, specifically bittering hops, as well as the specialty grain content. Can anyone else comment on either of those aspects? I don't mind brewing something that turns out to be significantly different tasting than my target, but I don't want something undrinkable altogether. Just need a drinkable starting point. Thanks again for the guidance.
 
Here are the specialty grains as per the "Can you brew it show". I have doubled the amounts so as to represent the quantities you would use for the XXI. This would be for a 6 gallon batch
Chocolate Malt 350 lovibond. - (.84 Lbs)
Chocolate Malt 450 lovibond. - (.84lbs)
Carapils- (.84 lbs)
Crystal 80 - (1.40 lbs)

The recipe also calls for 10% wheat malt.

The hops are too much. Not sure what type of utilization you will get with the higher gravity and partial boil, but I think you need to cut all hop additions by about 35% - 40%. That should put you in the IBU range you are looking for.
 
A little bit of playing with Beer Tools this morning and I have the hops right where I want them...

Original Gravity: 1.144 (1.026 - 1.120)
Terminal Gravity: 1.036 (0.995 - 1.035)
Color: 35.55 (1.0 - 50.0)
Alcohol: 14.62% (2.5% - 14.5%)
Bitterness: 55.3 (0.0 - 100.0)

Ingredients:
21.16 lb Pale Ale Malt
2.78 lb Wheat Malt
1.4 lb Crystal Malt 80°L
.84 lb Chocolate Malt
.84 lb Chocolate Malt
.84 lb Cara-Pils® Malt
1.75 oz Cascade (5.5%) - added during boil, boiled 90 min
.5 oz Galena (13.0%) - added during boil, boiled 30 min
.5 oz Tettnanger (4.5%) - added during boil, boiled 5 min
 
Thanks a ton you guys. I'll let you know how it goes this week. Any foreseeable issues with the cocao nibs, coffee, oak chips (quantity and time in?) It will be nice to RDWAHAHB on this one. Thanks again.
 
I have been assuming all this time that we are all talking about whole leaf hops and not pellets. I guess I shouldn't assume 'cause that would suck to be off by so much. So....are we all talking about whole leaf hops? :)
 
Thanks a ton you guys. I'll let you know how it goes this week. Any foreseeable issues with the cocao nibs, coffee, oak chips (quantity and time in?) It will be nice to RDWAHAHB on this one. Thanks again.

I used cocoa nibs on an RIS in secondary for a month. I used 4 ounces which I roasted in a 350 degree oven for about 30 minutes (my attempt at sanitizing). Over a year later the RIS still had a detectable chocolate flavor. In a big beer like XXI I wouldn't hesitate to double that amount. I think it would pay off nicely.

Coffee is the tricky one. Do some reading on adding cold brewed coffee. I made one coffee beer and used warm coffee, didn't work out so well.
 
Yeah, I did read about the hot/cold coffee debate. I am definitely not going to add the grounds to anything hot to extract the flavor on account of the acids and bitterness. I read an interesting post on cold brewing the coffee and then adding the liquid extract in secondary. I'm mostly wondering if letting the grounds directly mellow in the secondary at the 65*F-ish temp it will sit at for several weeks will be okay. Seems more authentic that way, and true to the original brewer's recipe, but I would sacrifice authenticity for taste any day. How many ounces of coffee did you use and what kind of grind was it?
 
Here is the recipe I went with for my first test batch. Brewed 9/19/2009:

5 gallons batch - extract with specialty grains.
90 minute boil

7.00 lb. (48.3%) Light LME
3.00 lb. (20.7%) Light DME
1.50 lb. (10.3%) Wheat DME
1.10 lb. (7.6%) Crystal 80L
.7 lb. (4.8%) German CaraPils
.6 lb. (4.1%) US Chocolate Malt (350L)
.6 lb. (4.1%) UK Chocolate Malt (450L)

Grains steeped at 150-158*F for 45 mins.

1.2 oz. US Galena (13%) for 90 mins.
.5 oz. US Cascade (5.7%) for 30 mins.
.5 oz. German Tetnanger (5.2%) for 5 mins.

4 oz. Dagoba cocao nibs added to boil for final 60 mins.

1 oz. each Sumatra & Ethiopian coffee (coarse grind) steeped in 1 C. COLD water for 3 hours and strained. All liquid added to boil for final 15 mins.

1/2 tsp. Irish Moss added to final 10 min. of boil.

Starter of WLP002 English Ale pitched at 72*F

Projected O.G.: 1.109
Actual O.G.: 1.107

Also: Combined .5 oz. french oak chips (med toast) with Woodford Reserve bourbon (enough to cover) to soak during primary for addition to final 10 days of conditioning.

The plan is to leave in primary for 21 days then rack off of trub to condition for an additional 14 days (final 10 days on bourbon soaked oak chips) before bottling.
 
So how is this turning out Eddie.

I am planning on brewing a clone I came up with based on the interview by the BN guys.

I am torn on the coffee part and the group here may be able to help out. The website says that they use 100 lbs of coffee in their batches of Black Butte XXI, so who knows how big their batches are? Are they brewing 100 barrels at a time? More? Less? If it is 100 barrels that works out to 2.84oz per 5.5 gallon batch.


I am planning on having this in the primary for as long as possible, probably 2 months, then secondary on the coffee for a few days and bottle and stored until next year. 11.5% beer is going to need some aging.
 
So how is this turning out Eddie.

Funny you should ask. We just bottled this last night. It tasted absolutely amazing! I can't wait to taste it chilled, aged, and carbonated. Here is a brief overview of what I think about the recipe and process the first time around.

As far as the base of the recipe (grain and hop bill/schedule) which gives you a beautiful "double" Black Butte Porter -- and a fine brew in and of itself. We are 100% positive that it is spot on. After listening to the podcast (several times) of the "Can You Brew It" show that cloned a standard version of BBP and had a pretty substantial interview with one of the brewers at Deschute's, We know we have exactly the right start which needs no adjusting.

We were also satisfied with our method of adding the coffee. Instead of adding the grounds to the conditioning vessel, we simply did a cold infusion and added the liquid to the boil. The coffee flavor was very strong initially, however, after 6 weeks, it has mellowed out brilliantly. Won't change a thing about that process.

Finally, the oak chips soaked in bourbon (Woodford Reserve) for a few weeks... They sat on the beer a bit longer than we would have liked, but the flavor seems to be great! Subtle but there. We'll just have to see how it works out after a month in the bottle. Once the recipe is just right we probably will use cubes instead of chips for a more "barrel-like" flavor, but that is down the road. For now, the chips seem just fine.

We will change a few things next time however:

We'll probably double the amount of cocao nibs to a full half-pound. There was no noticeable presence of a chocolate flavor -- nothing. 8 oz. might be too much, but I'm willing to try it to see how it affects the flavor.

As mentioned in an earlier post, I would make sure that an adequate starter is pitched. We might even toy with pitching a WLP 002 starter AND a Wyeast 1028 at the same time. That gets the finishing gravity a little closer to what Deschutes finishes with.

We did have some stuck fermentation issues with this brew (again, mentioned earlier) that we resolved by adding a pack of Wyeast 1028. This seems to have done the trick as our FG was 1.030.

Based on the way the flavor of the beer developed over the 6+ weeks of fermenting and conditioning, I would leave on primary for a full 30 days and then move to a conditioning carboy for another 14 days on the bourbon soaked oak chips.

Here are some of the notes concerning the actual fermentation for those who care...

OG of 1.107

Very aggressive fermentation start within about 8 hours of pitch.

Readings at 7 and 14 days were both 1.035 (short of projected FG)

Racked to secondary at 14 days.

Added oak chips at day 28.

35 day reading was 1.035.

Added 1 "Smack Pack" of Wyeast 1028 (London Ale) on day 35.

Bottled on day 50. Primed with 3/4 cup priming sugar (corn).

FG 1.030.

Sorry for the long answer, hope it helps anyone else who wants to tackle this.
 
Thanks for the info, I have been planning this one for a while now so I pretty much have everything in place already. Mine is looking pretty close to yours except for being all grain of course and I will be using big chunk of a WLP007 yeast cake to help out with the attenuation that is needed. I will be brewing it this weekend too in hopes to drink it over the 2010-2011 winter.
 
Brewed my version this weekend, ended up overshooting my gravity. I haven't nailed down my efficiency on biiiggg beers and didn't guess right.

Ended up at 1.120 temp corrected :drunk:

IMG_6609-800.jpg
 
I think this is finally getting close to terminal gravity after about 2 weeks. I haven't taken a hydrometer reading in a while but the brix conversion have it in the 1.020s somewhere I hope at least.

This thing is one crazy beast, I am not confident in it right now and am already thinking of a second attempt to have for next year too but we'll see how this turns out.
 
Humann Brewing.. do you mind posting your full allgrain recipe?

I was shooting for 1.113 gravity but ended up at 1.120 because I haven't nailed what my efficiency is with big beers like this.


Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 5.40 gal
Boil Size: 7.34 gal
Estimated OG: 1.120 SG
Estimated Color: 37.3 SRM
Estimated IBU: 56.7 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.00 %
Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU
18.00 lb Great Western 2 Row (2.0 SRM) Grain 76.79 %
2.36 lb White Wheat Malt (2.4 SRM) Grain 10.07 %
1.17 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt - 75L (75.0 SRM) Grain 5.01 %
0.71 lb Cara-Pils/Dextrine (2.0 SRM) Grain 3.02 %
0.60 lb Chocolate Malt UK (412.0 SRM) Grain 2.56 %
0.60 lb Chocolate Malt US (350.0 SRM) Grain 2.56 %
1.75 oz Galena [13.00 %] (90 min) Hops 51.1 IBU
0.50 oz Cascade [5.75 %] (30 min) Hops 4.6 IBU
0.50 oz Tettnang [4.50 %] (5 min) Hops 0.9 IBU
2.66 oz Coffee (Secondary 3.0 days) Misc
8.00 oz Theo Cacao Nibs (Boil 5.0 min) Misc
1 Pkgs Dry English Ale (White Labs #WLP007) [StarYeast-Ale


Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Medium Body, Batch Sparge
Total Grain Weight: 23.44 lb
----------------------------
Single Infusion, Medium Body, Batch Sparge
Step Time Name Description Step Temp
60 min Mash In Add 28.00 qt of water at 165.3 F 152.0 F


Notes:
------
CA of 129
First Wort 1.101
Pre boil 7.5g @ 1.090
og 1.120
 
I emailed the brewer and he mentioned a couple of key things. I messed up on the chocolate addition but here is what he said.



The chocolate was coco nibs (raw chocolate) that we started to add to the boil slowly 15 minutes before knock out. We added this at a rate of 1# / bbl (so about 2.6 oz for a 5 gal batch- I would go 4 oz).

The coffee is added post fermentation. What I would do is take a 1/2 pound blend of whole bean Ethiopian and Sumatran and course grind it. I would then stir in a 1/4 gallon of cold water and let it steep at a cold temperature for 24 hours. This will provide a true coffee flavor without the head killing oils. Strain off the cold press coffee. You should recover around 16 oz of liquid. Add this to your brew prior to carbonation.
 
So I bottled this last night, added the cold pressed coffee in the bottling bucket. Gravity was 1.025 which works out to a ABV of 12.66. It is about 8 weeks old now. I want to get these carbed up quickly while the yeast is still alive and my house is never above 65 so they are in my chest freezer with a light heater.

The gravity sample tasted great, I also drank a bit of what was left in the bucket. Still has that alcohol bite to it but it is really young. This should be a great beer for the years to come. I may do a second attempt next fall after tasting this batch.
 
I split a bottle of this with a relative last weekend and at 3 months old this thing still has quite the alcohol warmth to it and needs a lot more aging. The chocolate taste is overboard too, I hope that fades with time. It was still good as a sipping beer but man at 12.6% ABV, that is all it is.
 
I split a bottle of this with a relative last weekend and at 3 months old this thing still has quite the alcohol warmth to it and needs a lot more aging. The chocolate taste is overboard too, I hope that fades with time. It was still good as a sipping beer but man at 12.6% ABV, that is all it is.

Humann, besides halving the cocoa nibs and cutting back on the 2-row, is there anything else you'd change with your recipe or do you think it's still too early to tell?

Edit: Any update on yours Eddie now that it's had some time?
 
Humann, besides halving the cocoa nibs and cutting back on the 2-row, is there anything else you'd change with your recipe or do you think it's still too early to tell?

Edit: Any update on yours Eddie now that it's had some time?

Yes, instead of just dumping the cocoa in at the end of the boil, the brewer said that he sprinkled it in during the last 15 minutes of the boil. I think those are the only differences. Also I used the majority of a yeast cake but was from a high gravity brew and I think that hindered the performance of the yeast because I pitched some Nottingham when it was about 1040.
 
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