Belgian stout

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HItransplant

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I'd like to do a Belgian stout... Something along the lines of buffalo belgian stout.

I'm wondering if people have had more success with a simple stout recipe using Belgian yeast, or if I should look at adding some " Belgian" components to the grain bill.

Thoughts and suggestions would be great.
 
I've never heard of a Belgian Stout, sounds interesting. I decided to google for info on the style, and (not surprising) the first link was actually one on HBT. Carnevoodoo did one in '08.

Attempting a belgian stout. Don't know much about it, but hope this helps.

We were having this discussion at my LHBS about using try Belgian grains when making a belgian beer. That there is a subtle difference in for example a Belgian Pils and German pils. And one should use the correct ingredients whenever possible...I dunno if it's true or not but it's an interesting thing to consider. And after saying that we found out they only had a few pounds of the Belgian Pils, and my Belgian Blonde Leffe clone I'm brewing is a mixture of German and Belgian Pils.
 
Here are my thoughts on brewing one. I brewed something like this

10 lbs pils
1 lb dark candi syrup
0.5 lb chocolate
0.5 lb roasted barley
0.5 lb special b
WLP 500

Here's what I'd change:

10 lbs pils
1 lb roasted barley
0.5 lb chocolate
0.5 lb special b
WLP 550

You should use 550 because it is phenolic and will cut through the roasted bitterness. 500 was completely swallowed up.
 
I've never heard of a Belgian Stout, sounds interesting. I decided to google for info on the style, and (not surprising) the first link was actually one on HBT. Carnevoodoo did one in '08.

Attempting a belgian stout. Don't know much about it, but hope this helps.

We were having this discussion at my LHBS about using try Belgian grains when making a belgian beer. That there is a subtle difference in for example a Belgian Pils and German pils. And one should use the correct ingredients whenever possible...I dunno if it's true or not but it's an interesting thing to consider. And after saying that we found out they only had a few pounds of the Belgian Pils, and my Belgian Blonde Leffe clone I'm brewing is a mixture of German and Belgian Pils.

I did see that thread, and a couple more here on HBT, but none of them had follow up on how the recipe turned out.

I like the idea of keeping to the belgian grains as much as possible though.. thanks for the help revvy.
 
Here are my thoughts on brewing one. I brewed something like this

10 lbs pils
1 lb dark candi syrup
0.5 lb chocolate
0.5 lb roasted barley
0.5 lb special b
WLP 500

Here's what I'd change:

10 lbs pils
1 lb roasted barley
0.5 lb chocolate
0.5 lb special b
WLP 550

You should use 550 because it is phenolic and will cut through the roasted bitterness. 500 was completely swallowed up.

so, no sugar huh? ok.. I like the simplicity. I was thinking about using yeast I propped up from a bottle of deshutes abyss (its belgian, just dont know what strain).

anyway, I may just suck it up and buy yeast so I know what im working with.

thanks for the suggestion.
 
No problem, this intrigues me, I[ve never heard of them, so I now want to investigate this more. Keep us posted. :mug:

seems like a perfect winter warmer :)

deschutes abyss is split fermented 50/50 with belgian and english ale yeast. Seems to do a nice job balancing with the roasty chocolate flavors.
 
Here are my thoughts on brewing one. I brewed something like this

10 lbs pils
1 lb dark candi syrup
0.5 lb chocolate
0.5 lb roasted barley
0.5 lb special b
WLP 500

Here's what I'd change:

10 lbs pils
1 lb roasted barley
0.5 lb chocolate
0.5 lb special b
WLP 550

You should use 550 because it is phenolic and will cut through the roasted bitterness. 500 was completely swallowed up.

rex
are you talking 300L roasted barley or the 500L stuff?
 
Hows This sound?

Belgian Pils
Special B.
Chocolate Malt
Black Roasted Barley (500L)
Flaked barley
Candi Sugar

Not sure how much of the different layers of roasted grains I should use (ie roasted, black roasted, black patent). I dont want to drown out the yeast contribution to the flavor.
 
Allagash Black is a good example of the style. "...a Belgian style stout brewed with 2 Row barley, torrified wheat, oats, both roasted and chocolate malt and a generous portion of dark caramelized candi sugar." Although I haven't made one, I'd probably lean towards WLP530/540.
 
Allagash Black is a good example of the style. "...a Belgian style stout brewed with 2 Row barley, torrified wheat, oats, both roasted and chocolate malt and a generous portion of dark caramelized candi sugar." Although I haven't made one, I'd probably lean towards WLP530/540.

ah, so this is what the other thread was talking about. didnt think to actually look it up. thanks, thats helpful.

looks like allagash went the route of a simple stout, adding sugar and belgian yeast to "belgianize" it.

maybe Ill skip the special B.
 
ah, so this is what the other thread was talking about. didnt think to actually look it up. thanks, thats helpful.

looks like allagash went the route of a simple stout, adding sugar and belgian yeast to "belgianize" it.

maybe Ill skip the special B.


I'd use 500L, and hot steep it separately from the mash. If you're unfamiliar, just take a gallon of water and steep all your dark grains at 150, then add them at the very end of the boil. This avoids astringent flavors that can develop from throwing in dark grain with the rest.

Also, keep the special B. Allagash black, while not a bad beer, was not as good as the Belgian stout I made. The special B gives it complexity that the beer really needs.
 
rexbanner said:
I'd use 500L, and hot steep it separately from the mash. If you're unfamiliar, just take a gallon of water and steep all your dark grains at 150, then add them at the very end of the boil. This avoids astringent flavors that can develop from throwing in dark grain with the rest.

Also, keep the special B. Allagash black, while not a bad beer, was not as good as the Belgian stout I made. The special B gives it complexity that the beer really needs.

Huh...I've cold steeped, but never hot steeped. Interesting...
I've been using carafa to sub my dark grains and avoid astringency that way. Thoughts on that.

Also, I was thinking of adding 1lb of candi sugar. Why do you feel you would drop it from your first recipe.

Last question(s): mash temp? Hops?
 
Huh...I've cold steeped, but never hot steeped. Interesting...
I've been using carafa to sub my dark grains and avoid astringency that way. Thoughts on that.

Also, I was thinking of adding 1lb of candi sugar. Why do you feel you would drop it from your first recipe.

Last question(s): mash temp? Hops?

Hot steeping is similar to cold-steeping, but takes less time. You can really go either way, but at some point you need to heat the steeped liquid at least a little bit to get a touch of bitterness.

I would drop the candi sugar because I just don't feel this is a style where it's necessary. You ultimately want something that is mostly roasty. The chocolate malt and special B add complexity and maltiness to back it up, but they are not at the forefront. If you want to use candi syrup, that would be fine, but it's just an extra 5 bucks I didn't feel was necessary.

Also, I don't think this style needs to be lightened. It's a stout. I know other Belgian styles are supposed to be digestible, but sugar feels out of place in a stout. Roasted barley adds a natural illusion of heaviness independent of gravity.

I would mash at 151, and hop to 30-35 IBU with EKG. No aroma. I have a Belgian pale ale brewed with t-58 that I am about to keg. I've never used t-58 until now, and depending on how the beer tastes, I may take it for another stab at a Belgian stout. If I do, I'll post how it turns out. The most important thing is to use a yeast which isn't lost in the roast, and for me, that's 550. Same for Belgian IPAs, it cuts through the bitterness.
 
I recently brewed a "Double Chocolate Belgian Stout". I was inspired by Ommegang's Chocolate Induldgence. I've finally got it carb'd up and I'm really happy with how it came out. I was worried because normally I use fairly simple grain bills, but this one was rather complex. It smelled almost like chocolate syrup coming out of the fermenter. The flavors from the yeast complemented it well. Anyway, in case you'd care (I know chocolatey beers aren't always people's thing).

Belgian Double Chocolate Stout

5.5 gallon batch

13lbs Belgian Pale malt
1lbs Cara 80
1lbs Special B (though doing this again I'd reduce this a bit, has a bit too much raisin in the after taste)
.6 lbs Pale Chocolate Malt
.6 lbs Chocolate Malt
.2lbs Roasted Barley
1.1 lbs flaked wheat
1 lbs Dark Candi Syrup

Phew, that's a mouth full! The hops are much simpler..

1.5 oz Galena for the 60 min boil

I used Wyeast 1762 (Belgain Abbey II)

I racked to a secondary on this one so that I could rack it on to 4oz of Cacao nibs. Like I said, rather chocolately, though a lot more in the nose than the flavor, though it certainly is present there as well.
I think the Belgian yeasts can really be fantastic in stouts. They add a lot of depth to them, and even going with a very simple recipe I think the results would be rather nice.
 
I've never heard of a Belgian Stout, sounds interesting.

Allagash Black is a good example of the style..

What a coincidence!
I just popped the cork on my bottle of Allagash Black that I've been aging.
I said to myself, "I wonder if anyone has made their own Belgian stout at home."
I click onto HBT, and see this post from today.
Do-Do-Do-Do-Do-Do-Do-Do (for those of you who don't know, that's The Twilight Zone tune)

Revvy, I am currently sipping down this glass of Allagash black, it's delicious.
 
No problem, this intrigues me, I[ve never heard of them, so I now want to investigate this more. Keep us posted. :mug:

I'm interested in this one as well. One of my favorites is Chocolate Indulgence by Ommegang Brewery. Definitely worth picking up a bottle if you see it.
 
I add 10% home-made dark syrup to my Belgian darks and it's fantastic. Brewed one recently without it wasn't nearly as rich or deep flavored.
 
It's supposed to be from achouffe. I think JP uses it too.


LHBS guy suggested Duvel belgian golden ale.

I bought a bottle to try (I love those little bottles that duvel uses). I like to harvest yeast... cheaper, and you get to drink the beer too! BONUS! :drunk:
 
ok, heres what I have for my belgian stout. any suggestions would be great. thanks!


belgianized stout, take 1
13-E American Stout



Size: 5.0 gal
Efficiency: 75.0%
Attenuation: 75.0%
Calories: 242.94 kcal per 12.0 fl oz

Original Gravity: 1.073 (1.050 - 1.075)
|======================#=========|
Terminal Gravity: 1.018 (1.010 - 1.022)
|==================#=============|
Color: 38.86 (30.0 - 40.0)
|======================#=========|
Alcohol: 7.18% (5.0% - 7.0%)
|=========================#======|
Bitterness: 37.4 (35.0 - 75.0)
|========#=======================|

Ingredients:
10.0 lb Belgian Pils
10 oz Black Barley
10 oz Carafa Special® TYPE III
10 oz Belgian Chocolate Malt
10 oz Special B Malt
1.0 lb Belgian Candi Syrup
10 oz Oats Flaked
2 oz East Kent Goldings (5.0%) - added during boil, boiled 60 min


Results generated by BeerTools Pro 1.5.17
 
Looks delicious -- you like the number 10?

I would have expected some roasted barley in there. If it were me, I would drop all the specialty malts down to .5 lbs each and add .75 lbs of roasted. By my calcs, your SRM is going to be in the low 60's without the Carafa, so I don't think that is necessary. Also with that gravity, my preference would be to boost the IBUs up to at least high 40's for balance.

Did you decide on a yeast?
 
Looks delicious -- you like the number 10?

I would have expected some roasted barley in there. If it were me, I would drop all the specialty malts down to .5 lbs each and add .75 lbs of roasted. By my calcs, your SRM is going to be in the low 60's without the Carafa, so I don't think that is necessary. Also with that gravity, my preference would be to boost the IBUs up to at least high 40's for balance.

Did you decide on a yeast?

hey. thanks for the reply. i know, i should call this #10 stout. i was mostly looking at percentages and thats just how it turned out.

i was thinking i should increase IBUs also; ill probably shoot for 50. I like the idea of buying 2 oz of goldings and not having any left over.. so, maybe Ill add some fuggle or willamette (whatever I have on hand) at 60 and shift some of the goldings to a flavor addition. thoughts on that?

black barley is roasted barley, 500L. I added the carafa III to sub for the remainder of the black barley, in order to smooth out the flavor and help the yeast come through. So, I should have just under 2 lbs of the equivalent "500L roasted barley."

should I still drop the specialty malts down to .5 lb? 10 oz is .625 lbs... so close.


I based a lot of this on daniels' book, Designing Great Beers... and subbed any crystal malt addition with the special B. Thats where all the percentages came from anyway.

Edit: I'm using wyeast 3522... But I'm also going to pull some wort to ferment with harvested yeast from some Duvel golden ale.
 
I ordered an Allagash Black on tap recently. I had not seen it before and it was billed as a dark strong ale. Man, that was misleading. It is definitely a Belgian Stout.

To me, it tasted like a traditional stout but also had esters. I was not a big fan, but based on my n of 1, I would think that a good recipe would essentially be a traditional stout recipe, fermented with a flavorful Belgian yeast.
 
I recently tried Boulevard's Belgian Stout "Dark Truth" which was really good. It was like a beefed up stout (but not like an imperial stout with more hopping) with lots of Belgian esters and some darker Belgian malt flavors. Probably dark syrup or Special B in there. Good stuff.

I would like to try making a lower ABV stout around 3-4% with a Belgian yeast and maybe a hint of Special B for flavor. I like the higher ABV beers but I am trying to focus on more low ABV beers to cut caloric intake.
 
ayoungrad said:
I ordered an Allagash Black on tap recently. I had not seen it before and it was billed as a dark strong ale. Man, that was misleading. It is definitely a Belgian Stout.

To me, it tasted like a traditional stout but also had esters. I was not a big fan, but based on my n of 1, I would think that a good recipe would essentially be a traditional stout recipe, fermented with a flavorful Belgian yeast.

Yes...that's kinda what I was going for. Allagash uses Belgian candi syrup and a Belgian yeast, and I got the idea somewhere to use special B.
 
ReverseApacheMaster said:
I recently tried Boulevard's Belgian Stout "Dark Truth" which was really good. It was like a beefed up stout (but not like an imperial stout with more hopping) with lots of Belgian esters and some darker Belgian malt flavors. Probably dark syrup or Special B in there. Good stuff.

I would like to try making a lower ABV stout around 3-4% with a Belgian yeast and maybe a hint of Special B for flavor. I like the higher ABV beers but I am trying to focus on more low ABV beers to cut caloric intake.

Nice!! How odd, boulevard popping up again.
Last spring my wife and I took our 6 week old to the Midwest for a family visit. While in Kansas, we did a brewery tour at boulevard. Beer snob that I am, I thought, Kansas regional brewery, pish... Boy was I wrong. The odd coincidences started before the trip, shortly after we learned about the tour, when I found some of their smokestack series bottles at my local grocer (in Portland, OR).
After we came back from our trip I started noticing boulevard everywhere-- at the store, signs at my LHBS...weird. Then, the other day we were at deschutes here in portland and found that they had done a collaboration beer with....BOULEVARD!! I'm looking forward to trying it.

Now I find they have made the exact beer I'm planning--crazy!

I'm with you on the lower ABV beer, I might actually tweak this a bit lower.

Thanks for the reply.. Helpsa lot!
 
Revvy said:
Sorry, you're on your own for this one. It's a style not a lot of us are familiar with.

You'll have to do the dirty work, and brew it up, so you can teach us. :mug:

I know, I know ;)

I was mostly wondering about the stout portion of the grain bill, specifically the percentages, and if I should include a crystal malt or if that will muddle the special B/candi syrup contribution.
 
I know, I know ;)

I was mostly wondering about the stout portion of the grain bill, specifically the percentages, and if I should include a crystal malt or if that will muddle the special B/candi syrup contribution.

Not sure if it answers your question, but Special B is crystal malt. So it is certainly not necessary to use two different crystal malts unless you are shooting for a specific flavor.
 
ayoungrad said:
Not sure if it answers your question, but Special B is crystal malt. So it is certainly not necessary to use two different crystal malts unless you are shooting for a specific flavor.

That's actually exactly what I wanted to know. My plan was to take a traditional stout recipe, swap out all the elements of the grain bill that had Belgian counterparts, add some candi syrup, and ferment slightly warm with a Belgian yeast strain.

Sounds like I'm there.

Thanks everyone.
 
Well, my answer depends on what you define as "traditional". :D

For me, stout is pale malt, roasted barley (maybe some Chocolate malt), and something flaked for body enhancement. Flaked barley = Dry Irish Stout; flaked oats = Oatmeal Stout. Add some crystal malt of some sort, and you're in the newer style territory of American Stout.

I've never brewed a Belgian Stout before, but now you've got me thinking. ;) I like the idea of taking a tried-and-true recipe and tweaking one bit, in this case the yeast strain. (Read through my posts here and the trend of KISS will become apparent.) Perhaps I'll try that with my American Stout in my recipe dropdown.

I note with some dismay that brewers here talk about using all Belgian ingredients in Belgian-style ales. To the best of my knowledge, commercial Belgian brewers don't use Belgian-grown pils base malt; as a general rule they use "Continental" pils, whatever base malt is least expensive but provides the extract and flavor potential they need, that they can reliably predict. I agree strongly - use the base malt you use all the time, that you know inside and out, and can make work for you. First, the overwhelming majority of people couldn't tell what Pils malt you used. Second, the pro brewers in Belgium don't use Belgian malt. Third, in a beer like this anything "special" a base malt can provide is going to get completely smothered anyway. So why waste the money?

Also, to the best of my knowledge some Belgian Pils malts are undermodified compared with the pale malts with which homebrewers are familiar. Castle's is well modified and suitable for single-infusion mashing, as is Dingeman's, but Franco-Belges has many of the characteristics (which I prefer, if that's important) with the late, lamented DeWolf-Cosyns Pils malt, including the low protein content, less modification and lesser friability than other pils or pale malts.

Specialty malts, yes, by all means use Belgian if you can. Special B is of course the de rigeur Belgian crystal malt. ;) Castle produce a Black Malt which, while not a direct substitute for English or American roasted barley - because it's closer to Black Patent than RB - can be subbed to an extent. I <3 Castle's Chocolat malt. But for the base malt I'd use whatever I use the most and am most familiar with, in order to get closer to assuring success.

I don't know I'd use sugar here. In order to get a noticeable flavor contribution, you'd simply have to use too much dark candisugar; what you can notice in a Dubbel brewed traditionally - Pils malt and dark candisugar - you sure as hell won't notice in stout! And that's the max I'd use in terms of sugar, ~20% of the grist.

I concur with one hops addition for bittering only. Let the yeast's flavors play with the roasty and caramel/fruit flavors of the malt.

I'm playing in BrewTarget in another window. :D

Cheers!

Bob
 
Well, my answer depends on what you define as "traditional". :D

For me, stout is pale malt, roasted barley (maybe some Chocolate malt), and something flaked for body enhancement. Flaked barley = Dry Irish Stout; flaked oats = Oatmeal Stout. Add some crystal malt of some sort, and you're in the newer style territory of American Stout.

I've never brewed a Belgian Stout before, but now you've got me thinking. ;) I like the idea of taking a tried-and-true recipe and tweaking one bit, in this case the yeast strain. (Read through my posts here and the trend of KISS will become apparent.) Perhaps I'll try that with my American Stout in my recipe dropdown.

I note with some dismay that brewers here talk about using all Belgian ingredients in Belgian-style ales. To the best of my knowledge, commercial Belgian brewers don't use Belgian-grown pils base malt; as a general rule they use "Continental" pils, whatever base malt is least expensive but provides the extract and flavor potential they need, that they can reliably predict. I agree strongly - use the base malt you use all the time, that you know inside and out, and can make work for you. First, the overwhelming majority of people couldn't tell what Pils malt you used. Second, the pro brewers in Belgium don't use Belgian malt. Third, in a beer like this anything "special" a base malt can provide is going to get completely smothered anyway. So why waste the money?

Also, to the best of my knowledge some Belgian Pils malts are undermodified compared with the pale malts with which homebrewers are familiar. Castle's is well modified and suitable for single-infusion mashing, as is Dingeman's, but Franco-Belges has many of the characteristics (which I prefer, if that's important) with the late, lamented DeWolf-Cosyns Pils malt, including the low protein content, less modification and lesser friability than other pils or pale malts.

Specialty malts, yes, by all means use Belgian if you can. Special B is of course the de rigeur Belgian crystal malt. ;) Castle produce a Black Malt which, while not a direct substitute for English or American roasted barley - because it's closer to Black Patent than RB - can be subbed to an extent. I <3 Castle's Chocolat malt. But for the base malt I'd use whatever I use the most and am most familiar with, in order to get closer to assuring success.

I don't know I'd use sugar here. In order to get a noticeable flavor contribution, you'd simply have to use too much dark candisugar; what you can notice in a Dubbel brewed traditionally - Pils malt and dark candisugar - you sure as hell won't notice in stout! And that's the max I'd use in terms of sugar, ~20% of the grist.

I concur with one hops addition for bittering only. Let the yeast's flavors play with the roasty and caramel/fruit flavors of the malt.

I'm playing in BrewTarget in another window. :D

Cheers!

Bob

Agreed 100%.

Domestic pils and no sugar. Stout isn't a beer that you lighten with sugar, IMO.

I'm going to make one and use t-58, which I used on a Belgian pale ale I have on tap right now which turned out pretty well.
 
rex-- im going back and forth on using CS3 for half the roasted barley. LHBS guy says that CS3 has all the good things about roasted barley (500L), but without the astringency. Whats your (or anyones) thought on this substitution.

Or, should I just keep it simple... base, roast, chocolate, specialB?
 
I brewed a Trappist stout last December. Belgian pils, chocolate malt, roasted barley, special B, dark candy syrup, and WLP575 blend. Bottled with Orval dregs. I split off a gallon and added a pound of blueberries and French oak cubes soaked in Sherry wine, just bottled that last week. Tasted great.
 
rex-- im going back and forth on using CS3 for half the roasted barley. LHBS guy says that CS3 has all the good things about roasted barley (500L), but without the astringency. Whats your (or anyones) thought on this substitution.

Or, should I just keep it simple... base, roast, chocolate, specialB?

What is CS3, carafa?

If you steep your roasted barley separately in 3x its weight in water, and add that water at the end of the boil, you won't have any astringency problems.

That being said, I would primary for one month and condition for another month before serving. Your astringency will be gone by then. At least that has been the case with me before I started keeping the dark grains out of the boil.
 
Color is important to stout, but only one part of the roasted-grain spectrum. When I enjoy a stout, I absolutely require roasted-grain flavor as well as black color. If those flavors aren't there, it simply and unequivocally is not a stout. If you think stout shouldn't have a certain amount of astringency, you really need to rethink your view of stout. Roasted barley, the grain that defines stout, has a certain amount of astringency. It's part of being stout!

Now, if you suffer from excessive astringency, substituting some Carafa II or III or practicing the late steep method described above might be a good idea. Before doing that, however, I'd look to see what ingredient is causing the astringency and why. If you're getting excessive astringency in your stout, I suspect it's because of poor ingredient selection; Black Patent and equivalent malts are well known for imparting an unpleasant astringency when used in excess.

But substituting a flavorless black malt for Roasted Barley? That'll completely neuter your stout. I know we're not dealing with a specific BJCP style here, and God forbid I urge someone to brew to some sort of style, but we are talking about "stout". If you look at the existing BJCP style sheets for stout, they all list roasted-grain flavor.

Forgive me for overreacting, if it reads like that. I don't mean to be a poop! :D

Bob
 

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