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Old 09-21-2012, 06:56 PM   #1
LoneWolfPR
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Default All-Grain: Saison de Erin (looking for input)

I want to brew another beer for the wife. She loved the first beer I did for her, which was basically a gumballhead clone. This time I'm wanting to take a stab at her favorite style. Saison. The recipe is pretty basic, but i'm looking for some input. As a note, once it's out of primary I was thinking I'd split the batch and toss in the dregs of a bottle of Boulevard Saison-Bret to one half.

Saison de Erin
Recipe Type: All Grain
Yeast: Wyeast 3724 - Belgian Saison
Yeast Starter: None
Additional Yeast or Yeast Starter: None
Batch Size (Gallons): 5
Original Gravity: 1.051
Final Gravity:1.009
IBU: 28
Boiling Time (Minutes): 90
Color: 5.1 SRM
Primary Fermentation (# of Days & Temp): 14 days at 80 F

Grain Bill:
8 # Belgian Pils
2 # German Wheat
.5 # Dextrose (in boil)

Hops:
1 oz EKG 5.5% AA 60 Min
.5 oz EKG 5.5% AA 30 Min
.5 oz EKG 5.5% AA 15 Min

Single Step Infusion at 147 F

Fly Sparge to 7.5 gallons.

Boil for 90 minutes down to 6 gallons. Expect to lost .5 gal to wort shrinkage

Cool to 80 degrees and pitch.

After primary is done split the batch. Bottle half and add enough priming sugar to carb to about 2.15 volumes. Put the other half in a secondary fermentation vessel and pitch the dregs of a bottle of Boulevard Saison-Bret.

edit: removed CaraVienne and added Dextrose

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Last edited by LoneWolfPR; 09-21-2012 at 07:44 PM. Reason: changed recipe
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Old 09-21-2012, 07:23 PM   #2
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The grainbill and hopping look standard. The only time I brewed a Saison, I used straight pils and 10% sugar, no crystal and a lower OG, but I like my beers dry, especially my belgian beers.

Just two things:

a) 3724 is NOTORIOUS for being a pain to work with. I used 3711 (French Saison) and it might not be the classic strain, but it's easy to work with and will produce a nice saison that will not stick and will attenuate to ge the beer in the low single digits. If you want the challenge, go with 3724, but be prepared for it to stick at 1.030. I'd wager that Dupont uses a multistrain and that 3274 is only part of the equation, but what do I know ?

b) I'd start lower than 80F or you risk overwhelming the yeast and having a very hot ferment. For 3274, that might not be a bad thing, but if the yeast starts going crazy and there's a slight drop in temperature or they overheat the beer, the risk of having a stuck fermentation increases. 70F and letting it rise would be better, imho.

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Old 09-21-2012, 07:29 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jfr1111 View Post
The grainbill and hopping look standard. The only time I brewed a Saison, I used straight pils and 10% sugar, no crystal and a lower OG, but I like my beers dry, especially my belgian beers.

Just two things:

a) 3724 is NOTORIOUS for being a pain to work with. I used 3711 (French Saison) and it might not be the classic strain, but it's easy to work with and will produce a nice saison that will not stick and will attenuate to ge the beer in the low single digits. If you want the challenge, go with 3724, but be prepared for it to stick at 1.030. I'd wager that Dupont uses a multistrain and that 3274 is only part of the equation, but what do I know ?

b) I'd start lower than 80F or you risk overwhelming the yeast and having a very hot ferment. For 3274, that might not be a bad thing, but if the yeast starts going crazy and there's a slight drop in temperature or they overheat the beer, the risk of having a stuck fermentation increases. 70F and letting it rise would be better, imho.
Thanks for the note on temp. I'll probably take your advice and start at 70 and ramp it up a couple of degrees a day until I hit 80. As I understand it warm fermentation is crucial with this strain. Wyeast says it can get stuck, but given time it will ferment out. They also say ramping up temp to 90 can help accelerate things, so I might try that if fermentation hangs for any length of time.

I actually do prefer my saisons pretty dry. So I may take out the caravienne, and sub something else. I figure mashing at 147 will help that quite a bit though too.
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Old 09-21-2012, 07:32 PM   #4
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Most saisons don't have any caramel malts, so if it were me, I'd omit the caravienne, possibly subbing biscuit or lightly toasting the wheat. But if the Mrs. wants it a little sweeter, then leave it in. I was going to say something about the EKG, but apparently Dupont uses it along with Styrian Goldings. So nevermind. I've had nice results with Saaz, Motueka, mixing Centennial and Nugget, and with bittering hops only. These days people hop their saisons with just about anything, so just use whatever seems appropriate to you. Did you mean to put "no" for a yeast starter? To most people, that would be pitching about half of what you need. I'm not most people, to me that's allowing the yeast to produce more yeasty goodness.

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Old 09-21-2012, 07:38 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LoneWolfPR View Post
Thanks for the note on temp. I'll probably take your advice and start at 70 and ramp it up a couple of degrees a day until I hit 80. As I understand it warm fermentation is crucial with this strain. Wyeast says it can get stuck, but given time it will ferment out. They also say ramping up temp to 90 can help accelerate things, so I might try that if fermentation hangs for any length of time.

I actually do prefer my saisons pretty dry. So I may take out the caravienne, and sub something else. I figure mashing at 147 will help that quite a bit though too.
I wouldn't sub anything, I'd just go pils andwheat if I were you. Maybe biscuit. Maybe, but a good pils malt will be bready enough.
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Old 09-21-2012, 07:46 PM   #6
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I updated the recipe removing the caravienne and adding a half-pound of dextrose. That plus the low mash will probably hit the dryness I want. The wife actually likes them dry too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kingwood-kid View Post
Most saisons don't have any caramel malts, so if it were me, I'd omit the caravienne, possibly subbing biscuit or lightly toasting the wheat. But if the Mrs. wants it a little sweeter, then leave it in. I was going to say something about the EKG, but apparently Dupont uses it along with Styrian Goldings. So nevermind. I've had nice results with Saaz, Motueka, mixing Centennial and Nugget, and with bittering hops only. These days people hop their saisons with just about anything, so just use whatever seems appropriate to you. Did you mean to put "no" for a yeast starter? To most people, that would be pitching about half of what you need. I'm not most people, to me that's allowing the yeast to produce more yeasty goodness.
As for the yeast, unless I go over 1.060 I don't usually worry about more than a smack pack. I've never had an issue just dumping the smack pack without a starter.
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Old 09-21-2012, 08:24 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LoneWolfPR View Post
I updated the recipe removing the caravienne and adding a half-pound of dextrose. That plus the low mash will probably hit the dryness I want. The wife actually likes them dry too.



As for the yeast, unless I go over 1.060 I don't usually worry about more than a smack pack. I've never had an issue just dumping the smack pack without a starter.
If you are going with 3274, you're begging for it to stick if you don't make a starter. That strain is probably one of the most finicky that is available to home brewers in the wyeast catalogue. There are tons of threads filled to the brim with homebrewers pulling their hair out because it stuck for them.
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Old 09-21-2012, 08:31 PM   #8
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I've never used 3724 or 565, but I have a culture that I grew from Dupont dregs that never sticks. The last time I used it, it chewed a beer from 40 to 2 in just a few days. 566, 585, 3711 and 3726 are all currently available, and none have the rep of sticking.

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Old 09-21-2012, 09:02 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jfr1111 View Post
If you are going with 3274, you're begging for it to stick if you don't make a starter. That strain is probably one of the most finicky that is available to home brewers in the wyeast catalogue. There are tons of threads filled to the brim with homebrewers pulling their hair out because it stuck for them.
I will be building a stir plate here soon. I suppose it wouldn't be that big a deal for me to throw a smack pack into 2L of starter wort.
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Old 09-21-2012, 09:15 PM   #10
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Here's a question, if I am going to divide after primary fermentation and pitch the dregs of Saison-Bret should I add some malto-dextrin to the beer to give the bret something to chew on?

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