All-grain to extract conversion help needed

ejyoung · 07-01-2010, 04:09 AM

I'm planning to brew my third batch on Monday, but I need some help converting the recipe I found to extract with specialty grain. It's a La Chouffe clone (though a little dark I think). I tried doing it in Beer Smith, but I'm not sure I'm getting it exactly right. Can anyone help convert? Thanks a lot!

Recipe Specifics
----------------

Batch Size (Gal): 5.50 Wort Size (Gal): 7.50
Total Grain (Lbs): 15.57
Anticipated OG: 1.084 Plato: 20.28
Anticipated SRM: 9.5
Anticipated IBU: 32.1
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75 %
Wort Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Grain/Extract/Sugar

% Amount Name Origin Potential SRM
-------------------------------------------------------------------
87.2 13.59lbs. Pilsener Germany 1.038 2
7.8 1.21lbs. Candi Sugar(clear) Generic 1.046 1
5.0 0.78lbs. Crystal 10L America 1.035 10

Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.

Hops

Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-------------------------------------------------------------------
1.32 oz. Czech Saaz Whole 2.60 10.1 90 min.
1.87 oz. Goldings - E.K. Whole 4.00 22.0 90 min.

Extras

Amount Name Type Time
-------------------------------------------------------------------
0.09 Oz Caraway Seed Spice 15 Min.(boil)
0.17 Oz Corriander Seed Spice 15 Min.(boil)
0.17 Oz Cumin Seed Spice 15 Min.(boil)
1.10 Tsp Irish Moss Fining 15 Min.(boil)
1.10 Tsp Yeast Nutrient Other 15 Min.(boil)

Yeast
-----

WYeast 3522 Belgian Ardennes

Mash Schedule
-------------

Mash Name: Sneezy Beer

Total Grain Lbs: 14.36
Total Water Qts: 14.51 - Before Additional Infusions
Total Water Gal: 3.63 - Before Additional Infusions

Tun Thermal Mass: 0.00
Grain Temp: 70.00 F

Step Rest Start Stop Heat Infuse Infuse Infuse Name Time Time Temp Temp Type Temp Amount Ratio
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Protein 1 30 123 123 Infuse 133 14.51 1.01
Sacch. 1 60 149 149 Infuse 210 7.41 1.53
Mashouty 1 5 169 169 Infuse 210 12.09 2.37

Total Water Qts: 34.01 - After Additional Infusions
Total Water Gal: 8.50 - After Additional Infusions
Total Mash Volume Gal: 9.65 - After Additional Infusions

All temperature measurements are degrees Fahrenheit.
All infusion amounts are in Quarts.
All infusion ratios are Quarts/Lbs.It's

Oldsock · 07-01-2010, 03:26 PM

13.59 lbs X 38 contribution per pound X .75 efficiency = 387 gravity points needed.

387 / 45 gravity contribution of DME per pound = 8.6 lbs Pils DME

OR

387 / 38 gravity contribution of LME per pound = 10.2 lbs Pils LME

Steep the crystal and add the candi sugar (I would just add white/table sugar, essentially the same stuff).

If you are doing a partial boil you may want to up the hops a bit, but I think you'll be fine either way.

Hope that helps, good luck (and welcome to the site).

ejyoung · 07-01-2010, 04:26 PM

Thanks a lot. That's about what I came up with for the extract. I will have to do a partial as it's a little hot here to go outside for a full boil. When I plugged in 3.5 gallon boil into Beer Smith, the IBU was considerably lower than shown in the original recipe. How much should I be upping the hops?

Oldsock · 07-01-2010, 05:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ejyoung

Thanks a lot. That's about what I came up with for the extract. I will have to do a partial as it's a little hot here to go outside for a full boil. When I plugged in 3.5 gallon boil into Beer Smith, the IBU was considerably lower than shown in the original recipe. How much should I be upping the hops?

Just add more hops in Beersmith to get the IBUs of the original. The exact amount will depend on the AA% of the hops you are using. For hops boiled so long the exact variety doesn't matter too much, use whatever European-ish hop is cheap/available.

ejyoung · 07-01-2010, 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oldsock

Just add more hops in Beersmith to get the IBUs of the original. The exact amount will depend on the AA% of the hops you are using. For hops boiled so long the exact variety doesn't matter too much, use whatever European-ish hop is cheap/available.

Okay, that is what I was doing in there. It was something like 5oz East Kent and 3oz Saaz based on the IBU and AA% given in the recipe. That seemed like quite a large jump to me.

Oldsock · 07-01-2010, 05:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ejyoung

Okay, that is what I was doing in there. It was something like 5oz East Kent and 3oz Saaz based on the IBU and AA% given in the recipe. That seemed like quite a large jump to me.

That doesn't sound right, not sure what the issue is, but it shouldn't be more than a ~50% increase. 90 min hop addition? 32 IBUs? Right.

a10t2 · 07-01-2010, 06:03 PM

Just add half the extract late in the boil, and you won't need to adjust the hops at all.

I'd leave the crystal malt out as well. You can't actually find a "pilsner" extract that doesn't have crystal malt in it AFAIK.

SumnerH · 07-01-2010, 06:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ejyoung

Thanks a lot. That's about what I came up with for the extract. I will have to do a partial as it's a little hot here to go outside for a full boil. When I plugged in 3.5 gallon boil into Beer Smith, the IBU was considerably lower than shown in the original recipe. How much should I be upping the hops?

I'd ignore Beersmith's IBU adjustments for partial boil and use whatever hop schedule it suggests for a full boil.

Brewing software uses algorithms that are based on the erroneous belief that boil gravity affects hop utilization.

That's incorrect, and the commercial brewing world has known for years that hop utilization is independent of boil gravity--but it's something that the home brewing world really believed until recently. John Palmer among others has apologized for getting this wrong as recently as the most recent edition of How to Brew (he's far from alone--almost every brewing book got this wrong, and he was one of the first to go to International Brewer's Symposium commercial brewer meetings, learn the truth, and start spreading the word).

A smaller boil does have more concentrated break material which has some effect on final IBUs, but it's a far, far less dramatic effect than brewing software predicts.

Basic Brewing Radio actually brewed the same recipe with a full boil, a regular partial boil, and a partial boil with late extract additions, using the same hops in each one. The software predictions gave the same kind of wildly different IBU estimates that you're getting from Beersmith, but when they sent them off to be tested they found that the actual IBUs in each were basically identical.

IMO, you're best off lying to your brewing software and telling it that you're doing a full boil regardless of circumstances. If you're doing a partial boil with all grain (which has substantially more break material than extract), you might want to adjust the hops up 10% or so, but even then not nearly as dramatically as any software will tell you.

http://www.basicbrewing.com/index.php?page=radio has the BBR tests in the March 4, 2010 episode if you want to listen. There's a lot more info and discussion here: http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/estimating-bitterness-algorithms-state-art-109681/

ejyoung · 07-01-2010, 08:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SumnerH

I'd ignore Beersmith's IBU adjustments for partial boil and use whatever hop schedule it suggests for a full boil.

IMO, you're best off lying to your brewing software and telling it that you're doing a full boil regardless of circumstances. If you're doing a partial boil with all grain (which has substantially more break material than extract), you might want to adjust the hops up 10% or so, but even then not nearly as dramatically as any software will tell you.

Excellent info. Thanks. I'm going to the LHBS after work, so I'll just get a little more hops than called for. The recipe calls for whole hops - is there any reason I couldn't use pellet instead?

ejyoung · 07-01-2010, 08:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by a10t2

Just add half the extract late in the boil, and you won't need to adjust the hops at all.

I'd leave the crystal malt out as well. You can't actually find a "pilsner" extract that doesn't have crystal malt in it AFAIK.

I would have to increase the DME amount if I don't use the crystal, right?