Ss Brewing Technologies Giveaway!

Home Brew Forums > Home Brewing Beer > Recipes/Ingredients > 20 lb of sugar and a jar of yeast nutrient
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 05-07-2009, 03:41 PM   #21
Ysgard
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 58
Default

Thoughts on using the Urea/Ammonia Phosphate Yeast Nutrient in place of DAP?

__________________
Ysgard is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 05-07-2009, 05:12 PM   #22
hexmonkey
HBT_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
hexmonkey's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Hunterdon County, NJ
Posts: 377
Liked 9 Times on 8 Posts

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SnickASaurusRex View Post
One thing about a caramelized syrup is that it has very little fermentable sugar left in solution, because the process is happening simultaneously across the solution as the temperature increases (all the sugar molecules at once). When using the DAP only a limited number of sugar molecules can be affected, because the reactions occur below the caramelization point of sugar (320F), and are limited by the dose of DAP. Once it is used up it is gone (one DAP to two Sugar molecules).
Is this to say that the caramel syrup will contribute more flavor and leave a higher F.G., but your maillard syrup will dry out the beer more and perhaps contribute less or totally different flavors due to the higher fermentability?
__________________
hexmonkey is online now
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 05-07-2009, 10:20 PM   #23
SnickASaurusRex
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 431
Liked 28 Times on 7 Posts

Default

Ysgard:

I am not really familiar with that form of yeast nutrient. Are you sure that it is not 'Di-Ammonium Phosphate' derived from urea. If there is only one ammonium group then you might consider doubling the addition to match the nitrogen found in DAP.

Hexmonkey:

I am certain that you are right. I have not done fermentability experiment yet, but in theory this is what I would expect. I believe that the caramel syrup will give you a flavor profile akin to crystal malts, and the maillard syrup will give you a broader range of flavors and a morw fermentable product.
__________________
SnickASaurusRex is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 05-08-2009, 02:09 PM   #24
hexmonkey
HBT_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
hexmonkey's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Hunterdon County, NJ
Posts: 377
Liked 9 Times on 8 Posts

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SnickASaurusRex View Post
I am certain that you are right. I have not done fermentability experiment yet, but in theory this is what I would expect. I believe that the caramel syrup will give you a flavor profile akin to crystal malts, and the maillard syrup will give you a broader range of flavors and a morw fermentable product.
You should give this info to Basic Brewing as a follow-up, to explain the difference between caramel syrup and your maillard syrup. When I listened to the podcast, it wasn't entirely clear to me why the DAP was necessary, or what would happen if it was left out.

Spencer might also enjoy the opportunity to make both and experiment with the fermentability himself. He seems like that kind of nerd.
__________________
hexmonkey is online now
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 05-08-2009, 02:51 PM   #25
SpanishCastleAle
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Central Florida
Posts: 4,384
Liked 29 Times on 29 Posts

Default

I plan to do a sort of fast-ferment test on both types but I have to get some DAP in order to make the 'Maillard-type' Kandishroop.

__________________
Early brewers were primarily women, mostly because it was deemed a woman's job. Mesopotamian men, of some 3,800 years ago, were obviously complete assclowns and had yet to realize the pleasure of brewing beer.- Beer Advocate
SpanishCastleAle is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 05-08-2009, 04:38 PM   #26
yermej
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Cape Girardeau, MO
Posts: 306
Liked 1 Times on 1 Posts

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SnickASaurusRex View Post
wilserbrewer - I noticed that you mentioned your were going to use cream of tartar. This should make a toffee or cooked sugar syrup like peanut brittle without the peanuts. That would explain the marshmallow flavor.
Are you sure about this? Cream of tartar is an acid and you'll end up with invert sugar - though I think the caramelization process also splits the sucrose molecules so it's probably not necessary in that case. In making a toffee or brittle, you generally add baking soda when you remove the sugar from the heat. I think that just foams up and gives the brittle a lighter texture - I'll have to check my book when I get home.

The toasted marshmallow flavor is from the caramelized sugar - just like roasting a marshmallow over a flame.

Also, you mentioned earlier that one could add corn syrup to help prevent crystallization in the finished product. I think a small amount of cream of tartar (or another acid) would accomplish the same thing. As in making plain invert sugar, the acid will split some of the sucrose molecules into fructose and glucose which is what you get by adding corn syrup. This would allow you to stabilize the syrup without adding store bought corn syrup which generally has some sort of additives - often vanilla.

Regardless, thanks for the experimentation and info. Good stuff.
__________________

Last edited by yermej; 05-08-2009 at 04:43 PM.
yermej is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 05-08-2009, 05:06 PM   #27
SnickASaurusRex
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 431
Liked 28 Times on 7 Posts

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by yermej View Post
Are you sure about this? Cream of tartar is an acid and you'll end up with invert sugar
Yeah I am really sure about this. The addition of cream of tartar will only aid invert process, besides the sugars will begin inversion on there own around 250F.

When making peanut brittle or toffee the soda is used to cause the solution to puff for a nice crunch.

Caramel syrups are really nice, but I am talking about making a maillard syrup. Cream of tartar will do nothing for this as there is not a source of nitrogen.

As for the toasted marshmallows: That is what I said. It was from the cooked sugar.

As for the corn syrup: As I have said I have done quite a few side by side experiments. In all my maillard syrups that were not double cooked I have experienced crystallization. That is about 4 jars. DAP breaks down into ammonium and phosphoric acid, so there is an acid to aid in inversion. It is just that the syrups do not get hot enough to invert much, with or without the acid. Corn syrup would provide the necessary matrix blocking sugars to stop this. In the double cooked syrup there has been no sign of crystallization to date. That is because more of the sugars have broken down and changed into maillard compounds.

Remember there is a big difference between what I am making, and an invert syrup or caramel syrup. They are all three different processes. I was focusing on a maillard syrup.

By the way. All the syrups that I made with an added acid tasted more bitter and astringent when tasted side by side with syrups made with just the DAP.
__________________
SnickASaurusRex is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 05-08-2009, 05:29 PM   #28
rasherb
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Roswell, GA
Posts: 224
Liked 1 Times on 1 Posts

Default

The BBR interview sounded good. Thanks for posting the recipes!

__________________
rasherb is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 05-08-2009, 05:55 PM   #29
yermej
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Cape Girardeau, MO
Posts: 306
Liked 1 Times on 1 Posts

Default

SnickASaurusRex, I think I just misunderstood your reply to wilserbrewer. It seemed like one paragraph focusing on cream of tartar to me, but I guess you were referring to different parts of his post. My mistake.

__________________
yermej is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 05-08-2009, 06:14 PM   #30
SnickASaurusRex
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 431
Liked 28 Times on 7 Posts

Default

Yeah! I seem to have that problem with face to face conversations also. When I was in school my mom and dad fed me pills to make be talk better n slower, but the doctor won't give me none more.

__________________

Last edited by SnickASaurusRex; 05-08-2009 at 06:18 PM.
SnickASaurusRex is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Reply



Quick Reply
Message:
Options
Thread Tools


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Other sources for Yeast Energizer and Yeast Nutrient BigStone777 Mead Forum 19 08-16-2014 01:57 PM
Apfelwein experiments (Rasberry, Brown Sugar, Yeast nutrient) unclejimbay Wine Making Forum 4 05-21-2009 04:35 PM
Yeast starter with corn sugar and nutrient? jkpq45 General Techniques 1 05-05-2009 03:07 PM
Yeast Nutrient? Georgian Novice Cider Forum 2 02-05-2007 11:25 PM
yeast energizer versus yeast nutrient VermontFreedom Mead Forum 2 08-19-2006 03:17 PM