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Ysgard · 05-07-2009, 03:41 PM

Thoughts on using the Urea/Ammonia Phosphate Yeast Nutrient in place of DAP?

hexmonkey · 05-07-2009, 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SnickASaurusRex

One thing about a caramelized syrup is that it has very little fermentable sugar left in solution, because the process is happening simultaneously across the solution as the temperature increases (all the sugar molecules at once). When using the DAP only a limited number of sugar molecules can be affected, because the reactions occur below the caramelization point of sugar (320F), and are limited by the dose of DAP. Once it is used up it is gone (one DAP to two Sugar molecules).

Is this to say that the caramel syrup will contribute more flavor and leave a higher F.G., but your maillard syrup will dry out the beer more and perhaps contribute less or totally different flavors due to the higher fermentability?

SnickASaurusRex · 05-07-2009, 10:20 PM

Ysgard:

I am not really familiar with that form of yeast nutrient. Are you sure that it is not 'Di-Ammonium Phosphate' derived from urea. If there is only one ammonium group then you might consider doubling the addition to match the nitrogen found in DAP.

Hexmonkey:

I am certain that you are right. I have not done fermentability experiment yet, but in theory this is what I would expect. I believe that the caramel syrup will give you a flavor profile akin to crystal malts, and the maillard syrup will give you a broader range of flavors and a morw fermentable product.

hexmonkey · 05-08-2009, 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SnickASaurusRex

I am certain that you are right. I have not done fermentability experiment yet, but in theory this is what I would expect. I believe that the caramel syrup will give you a flavor profile akin to crystal malts, and the maillard syrup will give you a broader range of flavors and a morw fermentable product.

You should give this info to Basic Brewing as a follow-up, to explain the difference between caramel syrup and your maillard syrup. When I listened to the podcast, it wasn't entirely clear to me why the DAP was necessary, or what would happen if it was left out.

Spencer might also enjoy the opportunity to make both and experiment with the fermentability himself. He seems like that kind of nerd.

SpanishCastleAle · 05-08-2009, 02:51 PM

I plan to do a sort of fast-ferment test on both types but I have to get some DAP in order to make the 'Maillard-type' Kandishroop.

yermej · 05-08-2009, 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SnickASaurusRex

wilserbrewer - I noticed that you mentioned your were going to use cream of tartar. This should make a toffee or cooked sugar syrup like peanut brittle without the peanuts. That would explain the marshmallow flavor.

Are you sure about this? Cream of tartar is an acid and you'll end up with invert sugar - though I think the caramelization process also splits the sucrose molecules so it's probably not necessary in that case. In making a toffee or brittle, you generally add baking soda when you remove the sugar from the heat. I think that just foams up and gives the brittle a lighter texture - I'll have to check my book when I get home.

The toasted marshmallow flavor is from the caramelized sugar - just like roasting a marshmallow over a flame.

Also, you mentioned earlier that one could add corn syrup to help prevent crystallization in the finished product. I think a small amount of cream of tartar (or another acid) would accomplish the same thing. As in making plain invert sugar, the acid will split some of the sucrose molecules into fructose and glucose which is what you get by adding corn syrup. This would allow you to stabilize the syrup without adding store bought corn syrup which generally has some sort of additives - often vanilla.

Regardless, thanks for the experimentation and info. Good stuff.

SnickASaurusRex · 05-08-2009, 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yermej

Are you sure about this? Cream of tartar is an acid and you'll end up with invert sugar

Yeah I am really sure about this. The addition of cream of tartar will only aid invert process, besides the sugars will begin inversion on there own around 250F.

When making peanut brittle or toffee the soda is used to cause the solution to puff for a nice crunch.

Caramel syrups are really nice, but I am talking about making a maillard syrup. Cream of tartar will do nothing for this as there is not a source of nitrogen.

As for the toasted marshmallows: That is what I said. It was from the cooked sugar.

As for the corn syrup: As I have said I have done quite a few side by side experiments. In all my maillard syrups that were not double cooked I have experienced crystallization. That is about 4 jars. DAP breaks down into ammonium and phosphoric acid, so there is an acid to aid in inversion. It is just that the syrups do not get hot enough to invert much, with or without the acid. Corn syrup would provide the necessary matrix blocking sugars to stop this. In the double cooked syrup there has been no sign of crystallization to date. That is because more of the sugars have broken down and changed into maillard compounds.

Remember there is a big difference between what I am making, and an invert syrup or caramel syrup. They are all three different processes. I was focusing on a maillard syrup.

By the way. All the syrups that I made with an added acid tasted more bitter and astringent when tasted side by side with syrups made with just the DAP.

rasherb · 05-08-2009, 05:29 PM

The BBR interview sounded good. Thanks for posting the recipes!

yermej · 05-08-2009, 05:55 PM

SnickASaurusRex, I think I just misunderstood your reply to wilserbrewer. It seemed like one paragraph focusing on cream of tartar to me, but I guess you were referring to different parts of his post. My mistake.

SnickASaurusRex · 05-08-2009, 06:14 PM

Yeah! I seem to have that problem with face to face conversations also. When I was in school my mom and dad fed me pills to make be talk better n slower, but the doctor won't give me none more.