20 lb of sugar and a jar of yeast nutrient - Page 2

SnickASaurusRex · 05-05-2009, 05:26 PM

It is similar to crystal, but without the unfermentables and no malt flavors. It will help to stretch the body and dry out the final product. It will do what other caramels and candi syrups do to a beer.

wilserbrewer - I noticed that you mentioned your were going to use cream of tartar. This should make a toffee or cooked sugar syrup like peanut brittle without the peanuts. That would explain the marshmallow flavor.

It should be really nice to dry out an English brown, mild, or bitter. It would go well in a big porter.

The DAP is really necessary to bring out the maillard flavors.

By the way, these syrups are great over icecream if you're not using them in a brew.

wilserbrewer · 05-05-2009, 06:46 PM

Thanks Snick,

Looks like I need to get some DAP. Mosher confirms my toasted marshmallow diagnosis.

http://www.radicalbrewing.com/SCHFTaste1.pdf

SpanishCastleAle · 05-05-2009, 07:43 PM

SnickASaurus,
I tried making Dark Candi Syrup...outlined in this thread. I had no clue what I was doing. I just used sugar and water...no acid or anything else. My sugary cauldron didn't start to darken until it was quite a bit hotter...well over 300* F. Is that because i didn't use acid/DAP? I got the solution above 360* F but not higher than 370* F. This had a lot of toffee-like aroma but the flavor was ripe fruit, no burnt aroma or flavor. It's weird how the aroma and flavor are so different. I used it in a Dubbel and that brew is great (albeit still young for a Dubbel) but having never done any of this before I dunno how much flavor I got from the Dark Candi Syrup. It def tastes like it's got a bowl-o-cherries in there somewhere.

Could you explain the difference between your darkest syrup and...whatever it was that I made? You seem to know what's actually going on here.

Interesting point on the softball temp. I diluted mine too much and didn't reduce it back down enough...I quit @ about 228* F and it is a bit too thin. Nice to know the proper ending temp. FWIW, the remaining syrup I have from that batch (mid-February) has not crystallized one bit.

Ysgard · 05-06-2009, 02:07 AM

Question: As far as the amount of water making it a syrup goes...Shouldn't you just add water till it's between 30 and 20% by weight? (20% being LME consistency)

So, for 2 lbs, just add 8 oz water?

**Saccharomyces** · 05-06-2009, 02:17 AM

Fabuluous! I'll definitely have to give this a try next time a brew me up a Belgian.

SnickASaurusRex · 05-06-2009, 05:33 AM

SpanishCastleAle:

What you made was a caramel syrup;

Caramelization - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

What I made was technically a Maillard solution;

Maillard reaction - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Maillard reactions begin around 260F and continue up to about 320F. Right at 320F is where caramelization occurs and it continues to about 370F.

The ammonia is a source of nitrogen that allows flavors to develop that are outside the realm of cooked sugar. Both options are viable for the production of a candi syrup, but caramelized sugar is a little trickier and more dangerous for a novice candi maker. Also the cooked sugar has more of a mellow soft vanilla and toffee character. The Maillard solution has a wider range of flavors and is ultimately much sweeter.

One thing about a caramelized syrup is that it has very little fermentable sugar left in solution, because the process is happening simultaneously across the solution as the temperature increases (all the sugar molecules at once). When using the DAP only a limited number of sugar molecules can be affected, because the reactions occur below the caramelization point of sugar (320F), and are limited by the dose of DAP. Once it is used up it is gone (one DAP to two Sugar molecules).

SnickASaurusRex · 05-06-2009, 05:41 AM

Ysgard:

Sugar boils above the temperature of water and so the water boils off at an alarming rate. The temperature of the solution is acctually indicative of how much water is actually in solution. At soft ball (250F) ther is 85% sugar and 15% water;

Candy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This continues up to 320F when there is no water left in solution. This is when the sugar begins to caramelize. At 350F the sugar carbonizes and can actually combust if left above 350F for too long.

The water additions are to balance the boil off and finish at 15% water.

SnickASaurusRex · 05-06-2009, 06:02 AM

I have read over and over that Belgium Candi Syrup (D and D2) has no DAP or other additives other than sucrose. I find this interesting. I do know that they use sucrose from beets, and I have come across several references to DAP being used in the refinement process of beet sugar. I wonder if some of this DAP is carried over from production to end product. The DAP is used to create an alkaline solution that assist in the precipitation of impurities.

SpanishCastleAle · 05-06-2009, 12:42 PM

Thanks for the explanation. I used only sugar because that's what the D and D2 allegedly are but I did not know DAP was used in the refinement of beet sugar. I def need to make some of this stuff and compare.

Quote:

Both options are viable for the production of a candi syrup, but caramelized sugar is a little trickier and more dangerous for a novice candi maker.

In a way I may have gotten a little lucky on mine...it's a rather boring boil up to the point of caramelization but then things seem to happen at a faster and faster rate. After it got up to 350* or so the temp started ramping up faster and at some point it was almost a scramble to prevent the temp from going above 370* F. Adding the water just 1 TBS. at a time created violent boiling but I expected it to some degree. I think it was right on the verge of getting some burnt character and I'm not sure I could recreate it exactly.

SnickASaurusRex · 05-07-2009, 02:44 AM

The Basic Brewing show is up finally.

These are the links.

Basic Brewing - Archive Page

Direct MP3 Link