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Old 09-07-2010, 06:18 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by Freezeblade View Post
This most certainly is inverted sugar, as the heat and pH causes the sucrose to become glucose and fructose, thus, inverted.
The quote below is from one page back. In addition, the OP says it's a maillard reaction and not an invert sugar. To make inverted sugar/syrup you have to add acid.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maillard_reaction

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_sugar_syrup

"I've got a lot of experience boiling sugar for candy (family business, etc). You pot should be at least 4 times as "tall" as the sugar+water mixture you are boiling.

I've had no problems making the belgian candy syrup-it works better if you don't try to make it quickly---it should take about 30 minutes from when it starts to boil to color change (assuming 2 pound sugar and 1 1/2 cups water). If it takes less time to get up to 290F then the heat is too high.

The diammonium phosphate is the key to the maillard reaction. Its pretty easy to get sugar syrup up to 290F without changing its color if you don't burn it.

There are a lot of different opinions about this on line and some people say this is "invert sugar".

This is not the same as making "invert" sugar with an acid (like lemon juice), and this is not the same as "carmalization". This is more like the browning of bread in the toaster--it is a change in the sugars to a complex molecule that tastes different that caramel. Its a fairly complex reaction, and the products are not exactly sugars.

tim"


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Old 09-07-2010, 06:19 PM   #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Freezeblade View Post
This most certainly is inverted sugar, as the heat and pH causes the sucrose to become glucose and fructose, thus, inverted.
I bottle one 'clear' bottle. If I put the sugar in the pressure cooker with some acid it does carbonate faster than just plain boiled sugar. To me that indicates the yeast don't have to cleave the bond. This is how I start my candi sugar after having problems not doing it that way once. Always remained a syrup with no crystalization if I do the PC first.


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Old 09-07-2010, 06:49 PM   #113
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The lighter versions may be non-inverted, but the sugar will also invert (maybe not completly) at higher temps. I've never had the darker versions of this syrup crystalize on me, where as the lighter ones have. to me this says that the sugar inverts, as non-inverted sucrose will crystalize every time without adding stabalizers.

From wiki: "Invert sugar syrup may also be produced without the use of acids or enzymes by thermal means alone: two parts granulated sucrose and one part water simmered for five to seven minutes will convert a modest portion to invert sugar."

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Old 09-07-2010, 08:10 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by Freezeblade View Post
From wiki: "Invert sugar syrup may also be produced without the use of acids or enzymes by thermal means alone: two parts granulated sucrose and one part water simmered for five to seven minutes will convert a modest portion to invert sugar."
but this is not how you make the syrup in this thread, not even close really. You add the DAP, there is no sucrose and you cook it for approx. an hour to an hour and a half.

My first batch just three days ago crystallized. Many folks in this thread have had THIS VERSION crystallize. If you follow the directions in the OP and reheat back up to softball at 240 you'll get a semi hard candy that will crystallize. If you don't reheat back to 240 you'll get syrup.
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Old 09-08-2010, 12:29 AM   #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Centexbear View Post
but this is not how you make the syrup in this thread, not even close really. You add the DAP, there is no sucrose and you cook it for approx. an hour to an hour and a half.

My first batch just three days ago crystallized. Many folks in this thread have had THIS VERSION crystallize. If you follow the directions in the OP and reheat back up to softball at 240 you'll get a semi hard candy that will crystallize. If you don't reheat back to 240 you'll get syrup.
Of course there is sucrose. table sugar = sucrose. I've followed "sugar #5" to a tee many times, heating back up to 240 each time, and every time I get a thick syrup, that has not yet ever crystallized. Cooking it for an hour and a half is certainly adding heat and simmering, is it not? at least, sure looks like simmering when it's bubbling and cooking on a stove to me.

Edit: I've got some right next to me near my maple syrup, it's about 8 months old (last time I made the recipe). still a syrup, no crystals.
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Old 09-08-2010, 01:02 AM   #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Freezeblade View Post
Of course there is sucrose. table sugar = sucrose. I've followed "sugar #5" to a tee many times, heating back up to 240 each time, and every time I get a thick syrup, that has not yet ever crystallized. Cooking it for an hour and a half is certainly adding heat and simmering, is it not? at least, sure looks like simmering when it's bubbling and cooking on a stove to me.

Edit: I've got some right next to me near my maple syrup, it's about 8 months old (last time I made the recipe). still a syrup, no crystals.
I don't recall any of these recipes having acid required to make them which is what is required to make inverted syrup/sugar but I could be wrong because I didn't make the #5.

I'm not going to get into an argument about it because I am no expert here. I am just some shlep that found the recipe and made it and like it.

All I know is the OP and another poster who's family trade is candy making both said it's not inverted sugar. I posted the Wiki links, which I, as a layman, can understand the difference between the two.

You seem to want to argue (and be a smart ass about it) that this is inverted sugar, so I'll bow out of this one and leave it to the experts.

Have a good day,
Jeff
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Old 09-08-2010, 01:35 AM   #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Centexbear View Post
I don't recall any of these recipes having acid required to make them which is what is required to make inverted syrup/sugar but I could be wrong because I didn't make the #5.
I just blew through 20 lbs of sugar and a jar of DAP yeast nutrient

DAP is an acid.
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Old 09-08-2010, 01:52 AM   #118
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DAP is not an acid. Dap is alkaline with a PH above 7.5.
Page 5

http://www.mosaicco.com/images/DAP_Reviewed_4_10_100441_snapshot.pdf

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Old 09-08-2010, 04:45 AM   #119
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DAP is not an acid. Dap is alkaline with a PH above 7.5.
Page 5

http://www.mosaicco.com/images/DAP_Reviewed_4_10_100441_snapshot.pdf
Hmmm.. have read it was an acid elsewhere. More than once in terms of inversion.... Just goes to show I guess....
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Old 09-08-2010, 05:34 AM   #120
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OK...this is from post #7.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SnickASaurusRex View Post
DAP provides Nitrogen for mailard reactions (non enzymatic browning) to occur. These occur between ~270F and ~320F. Another source of nitrogen is ammonium bicarbonate. It is a leaven used by professional bakers.

As DAP breaks down around ~270F it separates into two molecules of ammonium and dehydrate-phosphoric acid. So it provides both the nitrogen for browning and the acid for inversion.
From post #27:
Quote:
Originally Posted by SnickASaurusRex View Post
As I have said I have done quite a few side by side experiments. In all my maillard syrups that were not double cooked I have experienced crystallization. That is about 4 jars. DAP breaks down into ammonium and phosphoric acid, so there is an acid to aid in inversion. It is just that the syrups do not get hot enough to invert much, with or without the acid. Corn syrup would provide the necessary matrix blocking sugars to stop this. In the double cooked syrup there has been no sign of crystallization to date. That is because more of the sugars have broken down and changed into maillard compounds.

Remember there is a big difference between what I am making, and an invert syrup or caramel syrup. They are all three different processes. I was focusing on a maillard syrup.
And when you make the #5, you add more DAP initially, therefore allowing for more inversion the second time you bring the syrup up to terminal temperature, resulting in a syrup which stays liquid.

And one more since we all know wikipedia is infallible.


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