Why do ice cubes make beer get infected?

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Bosh

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In Papizan's book it says that throwing ice cubes into wort to make it cool down can make it get infected and that's what happened the only time I did that (my third beer, was summer and it was my third beer).

I'm curious as to why this is. I don't think that bacteria can survive well in ice...
 
if the water that froze had bacteria in it then well yes. Since you probably top off with tap water anyways there's no harm I can see.
 
Bosh said:
I'm curious as to why this is. I don't think that bacteria can survive well in ice...
Click to expand...

Sure they can. Cold only slows bacteria down....it doesn't kill them. When the ice melts, all the nasties wake up again. You're better off with an immersion, counterflow, or plate chiller. These may be a bit expensive up front, but they are a must if you want to cool a full batch down in a reasonable amount of time.:mug:
 
I have made at least two dozen batches where I used ice cubes to cool the wort before pitching. One of the times I sanitised a lot of containers and froze tap water to dring a full boil down to pitching temps, but every other time I just bought bags of ice and used 1//4-1/3 bag per batch. I have never had an infection (lucky I guess), and will continue to use this method until I get a proper Immersion Chiller.
 
I know a lot of folks in AUS/NZ just seal the container and let the wort cool overnight...then pitch. Apparently this has worked pretty well. I'm a big proponent of doing full boils for hop utilization and then dropping cold break with a rapid chill at the end. Either way is fine...you'll still be drinking beer in a few weeks, no matter how you slice it.
 
Bosh said:
In Papizan's book it says that throwing ice cubes into wort to make it cool down can make it get infected and that's what happened the only time I did that (my third beer, was summer and it was my third beer).

I'm curious as to why this is. I don't think that bacteria can survive well in ice...
Click to expand...

courtesy of the US Dept of AG:

Does Freezing Destroy Bacteria & Parasites?

Freezing to 0 °F inactivates any microbes -- bacteria, yeasts and molds - - present in food. Once thawed, however, these microbes can again become active, multiplying under the right conditions to levels that can lead to foodborne illness. Since they will then grow at about the same rate as microorganisms on fresh food, you must handle thawed items as you would any perishable food.

http://www.fsis.usda.gov/Fact_Sheets/Focus_On_Freezing/index.asp
 
I know for a fact that bacteria can survive freezing down to at least -135 degrees F. That fact has messed up my research many times.
 
I never said the nasties would die when frozen. I am just guessing that either the ice I am buying is bacteria free, or the nasties ar not strong enought to take over my wort:0
 
Back in the day (in Utah) when I was brewing extact partial boils, I would buy bottled spring water and have it chilled close to 33 degrees. That combined with putting my brew pot in the kitchen sink for an ice bath while gently stirring allowed me to pitch the yeast inside 15 minutes.
 
There are two potential problems with the pour over ice technique. First, pouring hot wort can cause hot side aeration which can manifest in a wet cardboard taste in any beers you plan on storing/aging a while. If they're fast drinkers, not as important.

The other issue is potential contamination. If you made the ice yourself in a tray that you've been using in the freezer for while, you should put it through the dishwasher on sanitize first and cover it with clean plastic wrap the whole time.
If you buy bagged ice, you really don't know how clean it is. The safest way is to sanitize a few dedicated tupperware containers, preboil the water, then freeze them with the covers on.

You want to be careful with "I haven't had any problems so far" because you could be dodging a bullet and the next batch might be the one... The other thing is, new brewers tend to let a lot of off flavors slide or just not notice them. The beer can always be improved by refining your techniques.

When I was on extract, I'd preboil my top up water and put it in sanitized gallon jugs right in the fridge. I'd use a quick icebath in the sink to get the wort down to about 130F, then combine it with the cold top up water.
 
I agree with Bobby here- when I was doing extract, I did the same thing, although I did not boil my water. My water is sanitary and good tasting, but I used proper sanitation techniques (sanitizing the containers and then putting the covered container in the freezer or fridge).

The other thing about off-flavors- sometimes only a pro can pick them out. And a lighter pilsner beer might show them, while a stout will not. If you're comfortable with it, then who am I to argue about it? But I've done some beer swaps with other brewers, and I sure can pick out some flavors that they have missed.

Hot side aeration is greatly debated, so I won't restart that. But, I think it's wise to chill the wort to under 100 degrees before adding to your fermenter. First of all, if it's glass, you don't want to break it. Secondly, you can avoid any potential HSA issues.
 
I agree as far as "dodging the bullet" goes. It's quite possible that we just didnt have an issue. I'm glad you posted this thread, cuz its definitely something I should think about in my cooling process. For a little bit of cash, its quite easy to build a chiller that is easily sanitized and VERY effective. From here on out, I won't be using ice anyhow.

here is another question that is somewhat on topic with this thread.

We have been using bottled spring water for our beer batches without boiling them. I can only assume that when they are processed for bottling, they must be bacteria-free. Any thoughts on this?
 
I have done the ice cube chilling method in the past. I never noticed any contamination, but that doesn't mean there wasn't any. I would no longer recommend chilling this way. There is no reason to risk an entire batch for it. It is just too easy for the ice to make the beer get infected with this method...
 
NoClueBrewMaster said:
We have been using bottled spring water for our beer batches without boiling them. I can only assume that when they are processed for bottling, they must be bacteria-free. Any thoughts on this?
Click to expand...

I've been using bottled spring water since I started. Since moving to full boils, I don't use it post-boil anymore. If you are using it to top up your fermenter, you should be fine. The only real downside IMO is the cost...
 
And ice doesn't kill wild yeast/mold spores either...again they just go dormant.
 
I always use a bag of purchased ice to cool my wort and have never had a problem, and I doubt I ever will, at least not from the ice. First, if I'm putting tap water in the wort anyway post boil, I have no reason to speculate that the water used to make the ice is any less sanitary than bottled water or tap water. Theortetically, I guess we could argue that it might not have been completely sanitary before it was frozen, but we could say the same thing about tap water or bottled water. Secondly, and I know not everyone will agree with me on this, but I saw Alton Brown do it while brewing a batch of beer on the Food Network, dammit! Granted he might be an amateur when it comes to brewing, but he has forgotten more about food safety than I, or many of us, will ever know. If you've seen his show, this guy is downright paranoid about food safety. Although the ice manufacturers aren't freezing swamp water, and bottled water stands as much a chance of being contaminated as the water they froze to make ice (in my book anyway), one could argue that with that flimsy bag, transport, etc, bacteria could be present on the surface of the ice. If you know of a bacteria that I should be concerned with that can survive the temperature on the surface of an ice cube and then survive after being inundated by wort that's just a hair under boiling temperature, then I really don't see the point in even boiling wort to begin with.

Obviously, this is debatable, but the proof of the pudding is in the tasting, so to speak. The expert brewer/owner at my LHBS told me if I use ice to cool the wort, "It will get infected." I didn't argue with him, but question to myself whether this guy knows more about food safety than Alton Brown. Countless batches later, his dire warning has not proven true.
 
newell456 said:
I always use a bag of purchased ice to cool my wort and have never had a problem, and I doubt I ever will, at least not from the ice. First, if I'm putting tap water in the wort anyway post boil, I have no reason to speculate that the water used to make the ice is any less sanitary than bottled water or tap water. Theortetically, I guess we could argue that it might not have been completely sanitary before it was frozen, but we could say the same thing about tap water or bottled water. Secondly, and I know not everyone will agree with me on this, but I saw Alton Brown do it while brewing a batch of beer on the Food Network, dammit! Granted he might be an amateur when it comes to brewing, but he has forgotten more about food safety than I, or many of us, will ever know. If you've seen his show, this guy is downright paranoid about food safety. Although the ice manufacturers aren't freezing swamp water, and bottled water stands as much a chance of being contaminated as the water they froze to make ice (in my book anyway), one could argue that with that flimsy bag, transport, etc, bacteria could be present on the surface of the ice. If you know of a bacteria that I should be concerned with that can survive the temperature on the surface of an ice cube and then survive after being inundated by wort that's just a hair under boiling temperature, then I really don't see the point in even boiling wort to begin with.

Obviously, this is debatable, but the proof of the pudding is in the tasting, so to speak. The expert brewer/owner at my LHBS told me if I use ice to cool the wort, "It will get infected." I didn't argue with him, but question to myself whether this guy knows more about food safety than Alton Brown. Countless batches later, his dire warning has not proven true.
Click to expand...

You might feel very differently if you ever saw the inside of an industrial ice maker. It's not the water you should be afraid of, it's the slimy goo and molds that grows in those machines and goes into the ice. I shudder at the thought of the "things" I've seen inside ice machines. I try NEVER to think about it when I'm in a restaurant or buying ice. I've been 20 years in the business and I can tell you that ice machines rarely, if ever, get cleaned. BTW, although Alton is a trained chef, I doubt he ever saw the inside of an industrial ice maker.
 
Nurmey said:
You might feel very differently if you ever saw the inside of an industrial ice maker. It's not the water you should be afraid of, it's the slimy goo and molds that grows in those machines and goes into the ice. I shudder at the thought of the "things" I've seen inside ice machines. I try NEVER to think about it when I'm in a restaurant or buying ice. I've been 20 years in the business and I can tell you that ice machines rarely, if ever, get cleaned. BTW, although Alton is a trained chef, I doubt he ever saw the inside of an industrial ice maker.
Click to expand...

I realized that my post would spark some debate, but I have never had a problem, nor have I seen the inside of a water bottling plant or the inside of my city's water treatment plant, for that matter. Don't a lot of people top off their boiled wort with plain water? I suppose that I could call the Dept of Ag or Health Dept or whatever in my state and ask if a water bottling plant is for some inexplicable reason held to stricter standards than a the place that makes the ice, and if the place that makes the ice is for some inexplicable reason allowed to skate on safety issues (pun intended), but my track record speaks for itself, and the ominous "it will get infected" hasn't happened.
 
newell456 said:
I realized that my post would spark some debate, but I have never had a problem, nor have I seen the inside of a water bottling plant or the inside of my city's water treatment plant, for that matter. Don't a lot of people top off their boiled wort with plain water? I suppose that I could call the Dept of Ag or Health Dept or whatever in my state and ask if a water bottling plant is for some inexplicable reason held to stricter standards than a the place that makes the ice, and if the place that makes the ice is for some inexplicable reason allowed to skate on safety issues (pun intended), but my track record speaks for itself, and the ominous "it will get infected" hasn't happened.
Click to expand...

I'm very glad it has worked for you and I hope you continue to dodge the bullet.
 
EdWort said:
Back in the day (in Utah) when I was brewing extact partial boils, I would buy bottled spring water and have it chilled close to 33 degrees. That combined with putting my brew pot in the kitchen sink for an ice bath while gently stirring allowed me to pitch the yeast inside 15 minutes.
Click to expand...

This what I do when I making an extract or PM. I also fill the sink with water and ice, set the kettle in the bath, stirr the wort gently, meanwhile I alternative stirring wort and dunking the kettle in & out of the water.

I get the wort to 110'F or lower in 10 minutes then top off with cool bottled water. Like Edwort said 210F to 72F ~15 minutes.

Its Super Easy!! :mug:
 
newell456 said:
Although the ice manufacturers aren't freezing swamp water, and bottled water stands as much a chance of being contaminated as the water they froze to make ice (in my book anyway), one could argue that with that flimsy bag, transport, etc, bacteria could be present on the surface of the ice. If you know of a bacteria that I should be concerned with that can survive the temperature on the surface of an ice cube and then survive after being inundated by wort that's just a hair under boiling temperature, then I really don't see the point in even boiling wort to begin with.

Obviously, this is debatable, but the proof of the pudding is in the tasting, so to speak. The expert brewer/owner at my LHBS told me if I use ice to cool the wort, "It will get infected." I didn't argue with him, but question to myself whether this guy knows more about food safety than Alton Brown. Countless batches later, his dire warning has not proven true.
Click to expand...

I have NEVER in my life seen a plastic bag of ice that didn't have a puddle of water around it when set down and slowly thaw. That means there are small holes all over the bag from being in contact with other bags of ice, not to mention transportation (I'm sure the guy delivering the ice is gently laying the bags on top of each other). As for the quote, "If you know of a bacteria that I should be concerned with that can survive the temperature on the surface of an ice cube and then survive after being inundated by wort that's just a hair under boiling temperature, then I really don't see the point in even boiling wort to begin with.", its not the bacteria/mold spores on the SURFACE of the ice that is the concern, its the ones protected by the 1/2" of ice at the center of that piece that should cause you to worry. Unless you are using a very small amount of ice (what would be the purpose?), the temperature of the wort will be perfect for bacterial breeding when the middle of those cubes is exposed.

It's been mentioned before but the reason brewing is *almost* fool proof is because there are very few things that can outcompete a large population of yeast that are quickly depleting the environment of oxygen, have their perfect food source, and then having the environment go totally anaerobic.

It makes the hobby fun because unless you try to contaminate your batch, even a completely inexperienced brewer with no knowledge of clean practices can make a batch of good beer. But it doesn't mean its the right way, the safe way, or that their luck won't eventually run out.

Stick to frozen water first boiled and stored in tupperware containers (stored while still near boiling). You can be sure there's no chance of contamination, and you've also boiled off any chlorine present in your tap water.

For me, some ice water in my sink was enough to get the wort cooled down with the lid on in less than 15 minutes. I don't think its worth it to go through the trouble of making ice to get the temp down a bit quicker, but if it is, I'll use my own sterilized frozen water.
 
7Enigma said:
I have NEVER in my life seen a plastic bag of ice that didn't have a puddle of water around it when set down and slowly thaw. That means there are small holes all over the bag from being in contact with other bags of ice, not to mention transportation (I'm sure the guy delivering the ice is gently laying the bags on top of each other). As for the quote, "If you know of a bacteria that I should be concerned with that can survive the temperature on the surface of an ice cube and then survive after being inundated by wort that's just a hair under boiling temperature, then I really don't see the point in even boiling wort to begin with.", its not the bacteria/mold spores on the SURFACE of the ice that is the concern, its the ones protected by the 1/2" of ice at the center of that piece that should cause you to worry. Unless you are using a very small amount of ice (what would be the purpose?), the temperature of the wort will be perfect for bacterial breeding when the middle of those cubes is exposed.

It's been mentioned before but the reason brewing is *almost* fool proof is because there are very few things that can outcompete a large population of yeast that are quickly depleting the environment of oxygen, have their perfect food source, and then having the environment go totally anaerobic.

It makes the hobby fun because unless you try to contaminate your batch, even a completely inexperienced brewer with no knowledge of clean practices can make a batch of good beer. But it doesn't mean its the right way, the safe way, or that their luck won't eventually run out.

Stick to frozen water first boiled and stored in tupperware containers (stored while still near boiling). You can be sure there's no chance of contamination, and you've also boiled off any chlorine present in your tap water.

For me, some ice water in my sink was enough to get the wort cooled down with the lid on in less than 15 minutes. I don't think its worth it to go through the trouble of making ice to get the temp down a bit quicker, but if it is, I'll use my own sterilized frozen water.
Click to expand...


If only someone, somewhere, would experiment and determine whether store bought ice will infect a batch of beer.

Not to sound snarky, but I have already done that. I brewed for years this way, took a break from brewing due to a yeast allergy, then came back to this after my allergy was under control. Obviously, I can't prove a negative. i.e., that is is impossible to infect a batch of beer with store bought ice, but if it is possible, the chance of it happening has to be less than 1 percent. Nor can anyone prove that it's impossible to infect a batch with tap water or bottled water. I suppose anything is possible.

I am going to go on with my bad self. If I'm wrong, then I'm out 20 some bucks and my time (that'll keep me up at night), but I have heard time and time again, based on nothing more than unsupported speculation, that this ice will infect my batch, and it's usually based on what people imagine happening to ice in transit. If we're going to play that game, then I can imagine stuff happening to bottled water or tap water. Even though that has proven wrong, time and time again, I'm still the one that's wrong, and the dire warnings that have proven false are somehow right. That's logical. The proof of the pudding is in the tasting. If bagged ice is likley to infect a batch, then why hasn't it happened yet?
 
Everything in life is a risk. Everybody has to weigh risk/reward to the level they're comfortable with. Just because you haven't had an infection yet doesn't mean the global chance is less than 1%. It means you've been getting your ice from a good source and the bags have been in good shape until you use them. I would trust tap water frozen in my own clean trays (covered with plastic wrap the whole time they're in the freezer) before I'd trust bagged ice from a store.

I know you've been away from the hobby as you said, but you'll notice that a batch of beer is not $20 anymore. Just looking through the NB catalog, they average $50.
 
newell456 said:
If only someone, somewhere, would experiment and determine whether store bought ice will infect a batch of beer.

Not to sound snarky, but I have already done that. I brewed for years this way, took a break from brewing due to a yeast allergy, then came back to this after my allergy was under control. Obviously, I can't prove a negative. i.e., that is is impossible to infect a batch of beer with store bought ice, but if it is possible, the chance of it happening has to be less than 1 percent. Nor can anyone prove that it's impossible to infect a batch with tap water or bottled water. I suppose anything is possible.

I am going to go on with my bad self. If I'm wrong, then I'm out 20 some bucks and my time (that'll keep me up at night), but I have heard time and time again, based on nothing more than unsupported speculation, that this ice will infect my batch, and it's usually based on what people imagine happening to ice in transit. If we're going to play that game, then I can imagine stuff happening to bottled water or tap water. Even though that has proven wrong, time and time again, I'm still the one that's wrong, and the dire warnings that have proven false are somehow right. That's logical. The proof of the pudding is in the tasting. If bagged ice is likley to infect a batch, then why hasn't it happened yet?
Click to expand...

See my last post. It hasn't happened yet because you've got a lot of things in your favor to prevent an infection from taking over and being noticeable. It doesn't mean it isn't in there, just that you might not be tasting it.

Think of the bag around the ice like your skin. If you get a cut/scratch it might get infected, but probably not. You are more likely to get an infection if you run through a thorn bush and then roll in the dirt, then just rolling in the dirt. Its a way INTO your body, past the protective layer. Same thing with the ice bag. Even if the ice itself was sterile (and I'm not pretending to have ever seen inside an ice maker, but I'll take the word of Nurmey who says its anything but) I've never seen a perfectly intact plastic bag. Ice is sharp! It pokes holes all over the place, but you don't see it because its still cold enough to not melt through. I/we'd recommend you make your own sterile ice, but to each his own.
 
i have used ice before but it wasnt cubes. i bought 2 gallon jugs of purified water and froze them. when it was time to use them i cut the plastic off of the jug and put them in the fermenter and dumped the hot 3 gallons of wort over them it worked great i think it brought it down to almost 75 deg or so. i have a homemade chiller now so i dont do it that way anymore but it worked very well
 
newell456 said:
If only someone, somewhere, would experiment and determine whether store bought ice will infect a batch of beer.

Not to sound snarky, but I have already done that.

If bagged ice is likley to infect a batch, then why hasn't it happened yet?
Click to expand...

+1

I'll continue to use bagged ice until I build/buy a chiller. I haven't had an infection yet, and I doubt I will ever get one because of ice.

I have just brewed my 26th batch of beer since Xmas. Some of these have been double batches. I have only had one batch that I wasn't happy with, and that was due to not rinsing well enough after sanitising with bleach (which I wwill never use again...)

I'm not suggesting that anyone should use bagged ice, as I would hate to see them ruin a batch of beer because they got a bad bag of ice, but I will continue to take my chances.
 
Bobby_M said:
Everything in life is a risk. Everybody has to weigh risk/reward to the level they're comfortable with. Just because you haven't had an infection yet doesn't mean the global chance is less than 1%. It means you've been getting your ice from a good source and the bags have been in good shape until you use them. I would trust tap water frozen in my own clean trays (covered with plastic wrap the whole time they're in the freezer) before I'd trust bagged ice from a store.

I know you've been away from the hobby as you said, but you'll notice that a batch of beer is not $20 anymore. Just looking through the NB catalog, they average $50.
Click to expand...

The most expensive batch I have brewed lately was about $30. My average is $24.
 
ScubaSteve said:
I know a lot of folks in AUS/NZ just seal the container and let the wort cool overnight...then pitch. Apparently this has worked pretty well. I'm a big proponent of doing full boils for hop utilization and then dropping cold break with a rapid chill at the end. Either way is fine...you'll still be drinking beer in a few weeks, no matter how you slice it.
Click to expand...
I don't know if I would try this. If you cover your wort while it is still hot, you aren't allowing the DMS to evaporate and it will settle back into the beer. Not to mention the longer the wort is held at a high temperature the more DMS that will be produced.
 
Jared311 said:
I don't know if I would try this. If you cover your wort while it is still hot, you aren't allowing the DMS to evaporate and it will settle back into the beer. Not to mention the longer the wort is held at a high temperature the more DMS that will be produced.
Click to expand...

Jared,

Without a chiller how do you recommend quickly cooling the wort down if you don't use a cover?

The only way I could see this working and not risking serious chances of contamination would be to have pre-boiled frozen ice hunks to quickly cool the liquid on the stove with the top off.
 
The easy way to test this is to make a small batch of starter wort and chill it to pitch temps with a little store bought ice, then add the airlock and don't pitch any yeast. If it ferments out or gets infected in a few days, you know something likely rode in on the ice.

No matter how many people say the've been using ice without a problem, I'm not going to recommend it to new brewers as a best practice. I don't have any intention of attempting to change your mind. You're not having any problems at all and you're not worried.

The whole ice infusion issue goes away when you decide to full boil or all grain so it's only a question for those that decide to stick with partial boil extracts.
 

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