The Great Bottle Opener Giveaway

Home Brew Forums > Home Brewing Beer > Equipment/Sanitation > Therminator, Ice Water, Whirlpool... question

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 10-05-2009, 02:51 PM   #21
Lil' Sparky
Cowboys EAC
HBT_LIFETIMESUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Lil' Sparky's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Honolulu, HI
Posts: 4,013
Liked 47 Times on 32 Posts

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Pol View Post
I dont need 32F water, according to Therminator I need 58F water for 5 minutes. If I start with 32F water and a 20lb block of ice that is say 20F as thermal mass... I wan to think that I can keep 58F average for 5 minutes.
Inside your MLT you're going to be replacing 32º water with nearly 200º return from the therminator. It'll be below 58º for a while, but I don't know how long. Hot water negates ice really fast. I don't recirculate my ice bath (5 gals). I just have a coil that's running the wort post-plate chiller, and the ice doesn't last long at all.

Basically, you're going to (quickly) transfer the heat that's in your BK to the ice bath. You've got to have enough cold thermal mass to offset the temp differential to get to your target. I'm not a physics guy, but if you've got 10 gals of 32º in your HLT and 5 gals at 212º, I would think they would equalize at (10*32 + 5*212)/15 = 92º. I don't know if the math is right, but it's probably close. The heat exchange will take place quickly at first, but rapidly slow down as the BK drops and the coolant rises. Of course, you know this with your experience with your HERMS.

Like I said before. Try it and see. I'm kind of surprised nobody else has chimed in either.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by duffman2 View Post
I dub this beer the Double Slutty Triple Nutty Bodacious Booty Brunette!
Lil' Sparky is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-05-2009, 02:55 PM   #22
The Pol
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 11,616
Liked 51 Times on 48 Posts

Default

Is there a difference in 10 gallons of 32F water and...

5 gallons of 32F water with 20 pounds of solid ICE in it?

I dont know.

__________________
The Pol is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-05-2009, 02:57 PM   #23
flyangler18
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Hanover, PA
Posts: 5,679
Liked 25 Times on 25 Posts
Likes Given: 5

Default

Pol, the potential downfall I see to your plan is pellet hop sludge. Plate chillers can clog like nobody's business and because you use pellet hops so frequently, it might be worth considering. I chill with a CFC, and I get nervous using pellet hops in a greater quantity that an ounce without having some leaf in the kettle to act as a filter bed. Do you have any kind of hop filter on the diptube exiting the keggle? If not, you're going to need one.

__________________
flyangler18 is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-05-2009, 02:57 PM   #24
Lil' Sparky
Cowboys EAC
HBT_LIFETIMESUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Lil' Sparky's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Honolulu, HI
Posts: 4,013
Liked 47 Times on 32 Posts

Default

Sure. Add 20 lbs of ice to 5 gals and you're going to melt 1/2 as much of it as you would if you added it to 10 gals.

To answer the question I think you were trying to ask... if the 10 gals is above your target temp, you'd probably be better off just using 5 gals, because you're going to expend some of your cold ice just to cool the extra HLT volume.

__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by duffman2 View Post
I dub this beer the Double Slutty Triple Nutty Bodacious Booty Brunette!
Lil' Sparky is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-05-2009, 03:01 PM   #25
The Pol
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 11,616
Liked 51 Times on 48 Posts

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by flyangler18 View Post
Pol, the potential downfall I see to your plan is pellet hop sludge. Plate chillers can clog like nobody's business and because you use pellet hops so frequently, it might be worth considering. I chill with a CFC, and I get nervous using pellet hops in a greater quantity that an ounce without having some leaf in the kettle to act as a filter bed. Do you have any kind of hop filter on the diptube exiting the keggle? If not, you're going to need one.
I indeed do...
__________________
The Pol is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-05-2009, 03:05 PM   #26
The Pol
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 11,616
Liked 51 Times on 48 Posts

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lil' Sparky View Post
Sure. Add 20 lbs of ice to 5 gals and you're going to melt 1/2 as much of it as you would if you added it to 10 gals.

To answer the question I think you were trying to ask... if the 10 gals is above your target temp, you'd probably be better off just using 5 gals, because you're going to expend some of your cold ice just to cool the extra HLT volume.
I dont know what you are talking about...

My point was, we keep talking about 10 gallons of 32F water. I am not using 10 gallons of 32F water.

I am talking about using 5 gallons of 32F water with 20 pounds of ICE in it. Is the thermal mass of this greater than the thermal mass of 10 gallons of 32F water?
__________________
The Pol is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-05-2009, 03:10 PM   #27
Lil' Sparky
Cowboys EAC
HBT_LIFETIMESUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Lil' Sparky's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Honolulu, HI
Posts: 4,013
Liked 47 Times on 32 Posts

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Pol View Post
Well, here is the "idea"...

Utilize (2) march pumps
(1) Therminator
(1) 10 gallons of ICE water
Make up your mind. You're the one that said 10 gals of ice water in your first post.

Anyway, I answered your question if you read what I wrote. It depends on the temp of your tap water. If your tap water is higher than your target wort temp, using more of it only eats up the chilling potential of your ice.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by duffman2 View Post
I dub this beer the Double Slutty Triple Nutty Bodacious Booty Brunette!
Lil' Sparky is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-05-2009, 03:11 PM   #28
lamarguy
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 1,657
Liked 20 Times on 20 Posts
Likes Given: 1

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Pol View Post
I mean, it is only like $400 right?
Have you considered the plate chillers from Duda? The 30 plate model is equivalent in volume and surface area to the therminator for less than half the cost.

Next summer, I'm moving to a counterflow chiller for the incoming tap water and a plate chiller for the wort. I would use a plate chiller for both, but I already have a counterflow chiller.

__________________
Doggfather Brewery

Planned: Lambic, American IPA
Fermenting: 6 gals of 1.090 stout (Belgian) & 6 gals of 1.090 stout (English)
Tapped: Berliner Weisse, Black English IPA, German Pils, & Live Oak Primus
lamarguy is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-05-2009, 03:19 PM   #29
The Pol
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 11,616
Liked 51 Times on 48 Posts

Default

Interesting 30 plate chiller for $85... because it doesnt say Blingman

Or a 30 plate that is 12 x 3 x 3 for $110

Blingman is 7.5 x 4 x 3

__________________

Last edited by The Pol; 10-05-2009 at 03:23 PM.
The Pol is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-05-2009, 03:31 PM   #30
Boerderij_Kabouter
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Boerderij_Kabouter's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Oconomowoc, Wisconsin
Posts: 8,461
Liked 115 Times on 100 Posts
Likes Given: 11

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Pol View Post
Is there a difference in 10 gallons of 32F water and...

5 gallons of 32F water with 20 pounds of solid ICE in it?

I dont know.
Yes. There is a huge difference. That is what I was trying to say before.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latent_heat

Basically, ice water remains at 32 degrees until all the ice is melted because all the energy is being spent within the solution to melt the ice not warm the water (not that simple but it gets the point across). Melting the ice takes a lot of energy and therefore gives you a lot of cooling potential. I would guess it would be enough cooling potential.

If I wasn't so slammed at work I would run the math for you. A pretty rudementary calc should get you a good idea if it will work.
__________________
2P-Twent-E Simple Brew DITCHES 1 DITCHES 2 Fermentolagertaporator side-by-side ferm Twelve Hopostles Labels
Boerderij_Kabouter is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Reply


Quick Reply
Message:
Options
Thread Tools


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Whirlpool Immersion Chiller Question michael.berta General Techniques 4 09-09-2009 11:54 PM
Question(s) about whirlpool/trub removal chrispykid General Beer Discussion 7 05-06-2009 03:33 PM
Therminator autosiphon question DPB Beginners Beer Brewing Forum 4 03-23-2009 01:10 PM
Stupid Newbie question with well water vs tap water BrewBeemer Beginners Beer Brewing Forum 3 01-02-2008 06:57 PM
Counter flow chiller, whirlpool, pellets question casebrew All Grain & Partial Mash Brewing 2 09-20-2006 09:47 PM