What is the reason the star san turns cloudy? Is it done?
Star San?
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EdWort
Well-Known Member
The minerals in water do that. It's still good if you can whip up some foam. RO water will not do that.
OP
OP
Thank you sir!
Got Trub?
Well-Known Member
My understanding was that you shoudln't use it once it turns cloudy as that was an indication the pH was too high and it was no longer effective. Mine will last about 6 weeks before it starts to get cloudy, I then toss it and make another batch.
Theres a podcast about using Star San by its creator over at Basic Brewing Radio.
http://www.basicbrewing.com/index.php?page=basic-brewing-radio-2007. Alot of usefull information about how to use my second favourite sanitizer/cleaner bleach there as well.
GT
Theres a podcast about using Star San by its creator over at Basic Brewing Radio.
http://www.basicbrewing.com/index.php?page=basic-brewing-radio-2007. Alot of usefull information about how to use my second favourite sanitizer/cleaner bleach there as well.
GT
GT,
problem is, freshly mixed star san from my tap water is ALWAYS cloudy. I have a higher pH and lots of bicarbonate in my tap water, which causes this.
For people like me, I recommend either a simple acid titration kit (like what you'd use for wine making) or just some simple paper test strips.
I believe as long as the solution stays under pH 3.4, its still plenty active.
problem is, freshly mixed star san from my tap water is ALWAYS cloudy. I have a higher pH and lots of bicarbonate in my tap water, which causes this.
For people like me, I recommend either a simple acid titration kit (like what you'd use for wine making) or just some simple paper test strips.
I believe as long as the solution stays under pH 3.4, its still plenty active.
Funkenjaeger
Well-Known Member
From the man himself:
http://www.realbeer.com/discussions/showthread.php?pagenumber=2&perpage=15&threadid=10932
http://www.realbeer.com/discussions/showthread.php?pagenumber=2&perpage=15&threadid=10932
If your starsan is turning cloudy as soon as you make it malkore, you may very well not be sanitizing effectively. IIRC, talley recommends mixing it up with distilled or RO water for longest life, and if you can't get ANY life out of it with your tap water, you may be forced to go that route.Charles Talley said:
OP
OP
If it was the minerals in the water. Do you think my standard mechanical water filter will do? (It is not RO). I would imagine it would help.
Most standard filters take out rust and scale, possibly chlorine and chloraines, they don't reduce the level of bicarbonates. If your tap water makes your Star San solution cloudy, regardless of ph or foam it is ineffective, you will need to find a water with a low level of bicarbonates. I've found the cheapest place it an aquatics centre, they usually sell RO water by the gallon to fill aquariums, just take along a corni keg or jerry can.
conpewter
Well-Known Member
I have hard water at my house and star-san mixed up with that water will immediately turn cloudy as well. If i use the water that's been through my water softener then it will last for months.
Malkore is correct, as long as the pH is below 3.4, it doesn't mater if it is cloudy or not. StarSan contains phosphoric acid which will react with Calcium to form insoluble Calcium Phosphate, which is why it becomes cloudy. Mine is always cloudy and I've checked the pH numerous times and it has always been below 3.4. I've never had a problem.
If you want to reduce the calcium in your water you can simply add a little food grade phosphoric acid, give it a good mix and let it settle overnight.
If you want to reduce the calcium in your water you can simply add a little food grade phosphoric acid, give it a good mix and let it settle overnight.
Funkenjaeger
Well-Known Member
Personally I'm still much more inclined to believe the manufacturer - pH below 3.0, and cloudy=worthless. Charlie Talley seems like a pretty down-to-earth guy, after listening to the podcast he was in, so I am inclined to believe that his guidelines are well-founded, and not just stated way overconservative to cover his own a$$. Like everything when it comes to sanitizing in homebrewing, you can certainly get lucky and never have any problems even if you barely sanitize at all, but most people don't want to take the chance. I'm sure starsan still sanitizes if it's cloudy and at pH 3.4, but I still wouldn't trust that it sanitizes as well as a clear solution at pH 3.0 or less. I think that if my tap water was hard enough that I couldn't get clear starsan solution with it, I would switch to filtered water, or switch to a different sanitizer (like iodophor) if acquiring filtered water was too much of a hassle.pjj2ba said:
e lo
Well-Known Member
pjj2ba said:
It's not just the acidity that kills bacteria and yeast, it's the comibnation of the pH and the detergent in StarSan. Low pH alone won't sterilize. Lactobacillus species, in particular, can live quite happily in pHs down to 2.0 (see http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=193868).
So if, as Talley himself said in the podcast, IIRC, the cloudiness is an indication of loss of detergent effectiveness, pH <3.4 won't do much for you if your solution is cloudy.
I believe it is actually a synergistic action between the low pH and the detergent. Neither one does a good job alone. Okay it is a pH of 3.0, not 3.4. From the 5-star website:
I did a little more reading. The detergent is very common in laundry detergents. It has very good solubility in the presence of high Ca and Mg so hard water does not affect its effectiveness (as a laundry detergent). So I doubt any cloudiness is due to a problem with the detergent, so as long as the pH is below 3.0, according to the Star San product sheet it should still be effective.
Seeing as how it says, that simply adding phosphoric acid is sufficient to correct any issues with cloudiness, this leads me to believe the cloudiness is not due to any loss of the detergent, but is the reaction between calcium and the phosphoric acid. Calcium phophate is pracitally insoluble in plain water, but is slightly soluble in dilute acid solutions (according to the Merck index). Adding more acid will cause the Calcium phosphate to dissolve and clear the solution. On the other hand, the detergent is soluble up to a 20% solution (20gm/100 ml H20), or very soluble.
I did a little more reading. The detergent is very common in laundry detergents. It has very good solubility in the presence of high Ca and Mg so hard water does not affect its effectiveness (as a laundry detergent). So I doubt any cloudiness is due to a problem with the detergent, so as long as the pH is below 3.0, according to the Star San product sheet it should still be effective.
e lo
Well-Known Member
pjj2ba said:
Agreed on the synergistic action of the detergent and the pH. Interesting info about the detergent vs. the hard water. Good pickup. I do recall the directions recommending sweetening with additional Star San if it becomes cloudy; I did not remember seeing the phosphoric acid recommendation. My mistake, and it certainly supports the idea that it's precip. of Ca phosphates that makes it cloudy.
However, In my experience, adding additional Star San concentrate to a bottle that had clouded over time did not result in clearing of the solution. I may have added insufficent concentrate to re-solubilize the Ca phosphates, but that seems unlikely as my test strips indicated the pH was <3.0 (which is what I meant to type in my previous post, not 3.4. I had just read the prior posts and that number was rattling 'round in my head.) I'll have to try to replicate that.
Or maybe I'll just buy a few gallons of DI water.
Philip1993
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e lo said:
If my StarSan gets cloudy, I just add more StarSan and fresh water to a different container...
e lo said:
by this logic, I cannot use star san with my tap water. When I say it becomes cloudy instantly, I mean it. the only time I"ve seen clear star san is the one time I mixed it w/ distilled water.
I'd like to add I've never had an infection...not before star san came to my brew house, and not since.
OP
OP
Got Trub? said:
Thank this link helped a bunch... A lot a good info on this thread too thanks everyone!
e lo
Well-Known Member
malkore said:
That's good, I'm glad you're infection-free, and I have no doubt that you've got significantly more brewing experience than I do. However, it remains a published, peer-reviewed piece of data that some bacteria, particularly acid-producing bacteria like Lactobacillus spp., can live (and not just live, actively propagate) in solutions with a pH as low as 2.0. Ergo, you need both the cell membrane-disrupting detergent action and the low pH of Star San to effectively kill some strains of bacteria.
Beyond that, I can't say. The cloudy Star San from your tap water is clearly sanitizing effectively enough for you to be infection-free, and I'd say that's the most important part.
I'll keep dumping my Star San when it gets cloudy, though, since I'm fortunate to have water with low enough mineral content that it's clear for a few weeks in a sealed container.Philip1993
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malkore said:
It's great that you haven't had an infection, but your logic is flawed. It is correct to say; "I use a good sanitizer and therefore have never had an infection." But you cannot "I have never had an infection, and therefore I use a good sanitizer" Your lack of infection could be because of workspace cleanliness, your house, the locale, way too much chlorine in your water, pure luck, or any number of other factors.
Bottom line, the manufacturers have done very specific testing about the efficacy of their product, and your situation falls outside those guidelines.
Boerderij_Kabouter
Well-Known Member
This was a great thread! My water also produces cloudy star san but I never worried about it before. I really do need to get a filter for my brewery... ad it to the list
IMHO it is worth getting some distilled water for this. That one time out of a million that I would get an infection because of this I would still be pissed, even if it was only one time. I haven't had an infection yet and I don't plan to! :rockin:
IMHO it is worth getting some distilled water for this. That one time out of a million that I would get an infection because of this I would still be pissed, even if it was only one time. I haven't had an infection yet and I don't plan to! :rockin:
malkore said:
My StarSan solution is cloudy from the get go. I have brewclub friends who have been brewing for 20 years and their advice was to make a batch of solution and reuse ad nauseum (atleast 3-4 months). If it runs low add more solution. If the bottom of your tub (whatever you make your solution in) gets dirty stuff at the bottom, rack off into something new. I don't take it quite as far as they do. I'm a little more leary of keeping it too long. But they never have infections in their beer (nor have I) and they just keep a batch around at all times. I know this contradicts the manufacturer, but they ARE out to make money. So that's my 2cents.
Another observation about the pH. I use Star San in my airlocks and once the bubbling gets going the originally cloudy Star san becomes clear. I'm assuming this is due to the carbonic acid being produced as the CO2 bubbles through. I'll have to check the actual pH tonight.
e lo
Well-Known Member
pjj2ba said:
That is a very interesting observation indeed, and consistent w/ your hypothesis. I'll have to try that w/ my next batch. I can confirm that it does not happen that way (in my hands, anyway) with a blowoff tube submerged in a container of Star San. In my observation, that starts out clear, becomes cloudy in less than a day and stays that way. Of course, there's more 2-way exchange of the solution w/ the open air that way, as opposed to an airlock.
njord4
Member
If cloudy water meant it didn't work, wouldn't you think that would be on the label? It appears that a lot of people's water when mixed with Starsan becomes cloudy, and therefore something should be written about it on the label if it doesn't work... I would think.
In any case, I'm still installing a filter on my sink.
Erik
In any case, I'm still installing a filter on my sink.
Erik
SuperiorBrew
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The chemist from Fivestar said that what makes it cloudy is the surfactants reacting to the minerals in some water sources and falling out of suspension.
Basically what he said was the cloudier it is the more that have fallen out and the less effective it will be.
Basically what he said was the cloudier it is the more that have fallen out and the less effective it will be.
Skins_Brew
Well-Known Member
I made a 5 gallon batch last week using the water from my hose. I just opened up the bucket and the batch was cloudy. I had two clear juice bottles and i filled one with tap water and the other with hose water and added a tiny bit of starsan. The hose one is already getting cloudy (But, the hose water might have a lot more air in it because it was hitting the inside of the bottle at a high pressure. Could an old crappy hose really mess up starsan?
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