Get your HBT Growlers, Shirts and Membership before the Rush!


Home Brew Forums > Home Brewing Beer > Equipment/Sanitation > SS Counter flow wort chiller from Williams Brewing
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 02-20-2013, 09:55 PM   #11
latium
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Tempe, AZ
Posts: 109
Liked 20 Times on 19 Posts
Likes Given: 23

Default

tx-brewer, I'm not the right person for the job, but I sure am flattered!

__________________
latium is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-20-2013, 11:40 PM   #12
tx-brewer
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 309
Liked 58 Times on 37 Posts
Likes Given: 16

Default

Haha

__________________
tx-brewer is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-21-2013, 05:45 AM   #13
TheZer
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Florida
Posts: 156
Liked 29 Times on 9 Posts
Likes Given: 1

Default

Copper is a better conductor, but the s/s is stronger so the tubing is probably much thinner. Probably a wash. It really doesn't matter anyway, because the water flow is the limiting factor. You can only get so many gallons per minute out of your faucet and through a 3/8" or 1/2" chiller. Get what ever is cheaper, which these days seems to be the stainless.

__________________
TheZer is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-21-2013, 03:00 PM   #14
TerraNova
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Oakland, CA
Posts: 78
Liked 7 Times on 5 Posts
Likes Given: 32

Default

I am now understanding (I think) what latium was saying. Thermal energy is just "heat" and "cold" is just a lack of thermal energy. Once the coolant has for lack of a better word "absorbed" the thermal energy from the wort it is flowed out and new coolant is flowed in, in order to absorb more energy from the next amount of wort. The surface of the apparatus itself isnt absorbing any real amount of thermal energy it is only transferring the energy from one side to another. That is if I understand the principal correctly.

Follow up question, and the last post before this touched on it, a larger coolant flow seems like it would be ideal, right? More coolant than wort would be able to absorb more energy if I am thinking right. One thing I noticed about this chiller and the morebeer ones is that they are made of 5/8" tubing inside of 7/8" tubing... Really only allowing the equivalent of 1/4" of coolant to flow thru on the cold side (7/8" - 5/8"= 2/8" or 1/4" of space within the outer tubing for coolant, not accounting for the thickness of the
tubing but for the sake of this discussion, lets assume it is negligible).If my understanding is right, wouldnt a larger outer tube that has equal or greater flow capacity / rate be more efficient? Or does it not matter, does it at some point equal out as long as the surface of the of the inner tube is covered with even a small amount of coolant. I understand cost and space would be an issue for bringing a product to market but I am just trying to understand the principals of how this works.

Thanks in advance to anybody who can explain this to me...this is awesomely informative to me.

__________________
TerraNova is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-21-2013, 10:36 PM   #15
latium
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Tempe, AZ
Posts: 109
Liked 20 Times on 19 Posts
Likes Given: 23

Default

Faster coolant flow (and more of it) will cool the wort down quicker, all else being equal, but there's a point of diminishing returns where you become very inefficient with your coolant. If you're using twice as much cooling water for a 10% reduction in cooling time, it might not be worth it.

Regarding the math: The difference in the diameter is 0.25", but there's a big difference in area in that quarter-inch outer ring vs. a quarter-inch diameter. The area of a circle is pi times the square of its radius, with the radius being half the diameter: A = pi * r^2. (Or you can substitute A = pi * (d/2)^2 if you want. (If you want to get the volume of the tube/pipe/cylinder, just multiple by the height, or think of it as the length, if you prefer.)

For a 1/4" circle, the area is 0.049 sq. in.
For a 5/8" circle, the area is 0.307 sq. in.
For a 7/8" circle, the area is 0.601 sq. in.

(Again, multiply those figures by the length of the pipe--in inches--to get the total cubic inches that the pipe holds.)

You can see that the 7/8" pipe approaches twice the cross-section of the 5/8" pipe, probably more like 80-90% without actually doing that part of the math, but it's getting there.

But a larger diameter outer pipe wouldn't necessarily be better. It would allow faster flow rates (all else being equal), but there's an effect with fluids (i.e., liquids and gases, although we're only concerned about liquids here) called laminar flow. It's this effect that causes water near the inner pipe to stay close to the inner tube, and it also causes the wort near the edge of the inner pipe to stay close to the inner pipe, with less mixing than you might expect.

This is why you see "convoluted counter-flow chillers" (or even the occasional immersion chiller for sale; the surface of the inner pipe is not smooth, so it disrupts the laminar flow and causes greater mixing of the different layers within both the wort and the coolant.

(If it's possible to force a high-enough flow rate, I would guess that smaller pipes might be more efficient with the coolant, possibly at the expense of longer cooling times, but I don't know for sure. In any case, nearly every design decision is a trade-off.)

As you can see, both fluid dynamics and thermodynamics play large parts in what look at first like simple wort chillers.

__________________
latium is offline
2
People Like This 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-21-2013, 11:27 PM   #16
tyzippers
Feedback Score: 4 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Meadville, PA
Posts: 2,315
Liked 404 Times on 300 Posts
Likes Given: 147

Default

Latium, you're evoking some fond memories of thermodynamics and fluid dynamics class! Those were the days...but I digress. Thanks for putting some good information out there. It could help so many. It is a subject that is oft misunderstood.

__________________

Check me out on Untappd. Or don't. See if I care.

tyzippers is offline
latium Likes This 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-21-2013, 11:55 PM   #17
TerraNova
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Oakland, CA
Posts: 78
Liked 7 Times on 5 Posts
Likes Given: 32

Default

Those 3rd dimensions...ugh.

This EXACTLY what I was asking about, thanks. I will be pondering this on dogs walks and while sitting in traffic for the next couple of days for sure.

I figured there would be a diminished return on the outer pipe size, I can't imagine a 3/8" inner tube of wort getting that much cooler while surrounded by a massive outer tube than with one that is only somewhat bigger. There must be a formula for that.

And I have seen the convoluted chillers (this one and some at morebeer) that you mentioned but I have also seen people do comparisons in real world tests with varied results. With equal variables (as equal as possible in non-lab environments) sometimes the convoluted one chills faster (in recirculations) or to cooler temperatures in straight to fermentor CFC runs...but sometimes not. What I have seen is that length of the tubing seems to have a bigger effect.

Interesting about the laminar flow. Does that mean if one were to throttle back on the output of wort into a 5/8" inner tube it would actually create a hollow tube of wort that is contacting the surface of the inner tube as much as possible (more or less, of course) or would it trickle through along the bottom of the tube (in non-convoluted tubing)?

BTW, you are the MAN for taking the time to explain all of this and field my ignorant questions.

__________________
TerraNova is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-22-2013, 12:19 AM   #18
tyzippers
Feedback Score: 4 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Meadville, PA
Posts: 2,315
Liked 404 Times on 300 Posts
Likes Given: 147

Default

If I may interject a small explanation of laminar flow, you can think of it strictly as the flow path of a particle in a stream...in our case, water or wort flow. Laminar flow means simply that the particle will flow in a straight line. You can imagine a car in a wind tunnel: when they inject the stream of smoke, it will flow in a straight line and follow the path of the car exterior. That a visual explanation of laminar flow. When the flow is disturbed, as in the case of a convoluted pipe, the flow will become turbulent. If you've ever flown in s plane and experienced turbulence, that should pretty much give you an idea what kind of flow turbulent flow it. Very rough and swirly.

In answering your question, by reducing the flow in the larger pipe, there won't be a "hollow tube" of wort flow. Gravity will ultimately take over and creat a stream of wort along the bottom of the pipe. Depending on the flow rate, centrifugal force may force the flow up the outside of the pipe a bit but not a complete hollow tube of flow.

__________________

Check me out on Untappd. Or don't. See if I care.

tyzippers is offline
2
People Like This 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-22-2013, 02:22 AM   #19
tx-brewer
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 309
Liked 58 Times on 37 Posts
Likes Given: 16

Default

Ok, you guys are really making me want to get off homebrewtalk and get into my thermo book. I'm having a mental breakdown. Rdwhahb

__________________
tx-brewer is offline
2
People Like This 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 08-11-2013, 02:51 PM   #20
Mtn_Brewer
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 158
Liked 33 Times on 22 Posts

Default

For those waiting for Williams Brewing to get restocked, they are in and on sale until8/14. I got mine and it is sweet. They apparently heard people's concern about the odd wort tube sizes and added 1/2" MPT threads to each end, which is a nice upgrade. http://www.williamsbrewing.com/STAIN...P3452C107.aspx

image-467427612.jpg  
__________________
Mtn_Brewer is offline
EthenWithAnE Likes This 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Reply



Quick Reply
Message:
Options
Thread Tools


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Counter Flow Wort Chiller goldenislesbrewsupply For Sale 0 11-24-2012 04:58 PM
Counter flow wort chiller kdoggmoney52 For Sale 0 08-28-2012 05:42 AM
Cheap Counter Flow Wort Chiller goldenislesbrewsupply Chillers and Stir Plates 0 04-13-2012 08:39 PM
For Sale - Counter Flow Wort Chiller YellowDogBrewingCompany For Sale 1 12-09-2009 11:01 PM
Counter Flow Wort Chiller Rockweezy Equipment/Sanitation 15 05-02-2008 07:54 PM



Newest Threads

LATEST SPONSOR DEALS