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Old 05-20-2009, 05:45 PM   #31
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Take the first diagram and change the to fermentor label to boil and you have it. The pump can switch between transfering hot water to top of mash and pumping wort to boil kettle with the level switch controlling switch over.

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Old 05-20-2009, 06:31 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by Bobby_M View Post
Yorg, you're right. Try it out. The more I think of it, if you can keep the grainbed from compacting under the weight of the water (to the point you don't stick the runoff) it should work no problem. The limitation is certainly the size of the mash tun which would have to be about twice the size of the desired finished batch.

Blackheart, in order to save one pump, you can either go with two tiers to use gravity for one of the transfer functions in fly sparging or you can keep it all on one level and batch sparge. That's how my system is currently setup though I use no automated temp control at all (not that it couldn't).

I personally don't care for tons of hard plumbing and a matrix of valves that have to be turned just right. That's why I have two hoses on my pump with quick disconnects on everything.
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Old 05-20-2009, 08:25 PM   #33
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There are two ways I can see you keeping your two pot RIMS setup AND getting slightly better efficiency than a no-sparge setup

First Way
1 Drain the first runnings into a pail, this is where the lions share of your sugar is, so take it out of the mix. Recirc the hot water from your HLT/kettle to your MT until it is well mixed, then pump into hlt. Dump first runnings back in and off to the races.

Second Way

Add an elevated cooler above the MLT. Heat your sparge water up in Bk, then pump to cooler and gravity drain in.

Cheers

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Old 05-20-2009, 10:01 PM   #34
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blackheart, I'd be interested in the reasoning why you moved from RIMS to HERMS? RIMS is arguably less complex, at least from a parts count perspective. This was one of your design goals, correct?

Obviously there have been many threads on RIMS vs. HERMS, I believe both have their strong points.

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Old 05-20-2009, 10:46 PM   #35
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I see what your all saying here. I want efficiency and the way to get it is by sparging. And to do that I need 3 pots and 2 pumps (or 2 levels and 1 pump)

If I have to use 3 pots (I was just trying to make the parts and size less complex and smaller) then I might as well go with the HERMS system which can double as a wort chiller/ preheat water for brewing multiple batches.

What do you guys think of my HERMS design?
Regarding cooling in the HLT, I think that you will find is that you may not be able to reach pitching temp by ice alone. As the wort cools, the cold water will heat up, slowing the cooling ability. You would need to allow for replacing the hot water with more ice / cold water, in addition you probably want some way to agitate the cooling water. Just my $.02.
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Old 05-20-2009, 11:46 PM   #36
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Regarding cooling in the HLT, I think that you will find is that you may not be able to reach pitching temp by ice alone. As the wort cools, the cold water will heat up, slowing the cooling ability. You would need to allow for replacing the hot water with more ice / cold water, in addition you probably want some way to agitate the cooling water. Just my $.02.
+1 agreed... especially sending it through the coil in the HLT once. Not to mention by the time you try to transfer all of that thermal energy from 10 gallons of boiling wort to an ice bath... the ice bath will get heat saturated and will not be cooling the wort to a large degree.
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Old 05-21-2009, 06:43 PM   #37
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blackheart, I'd be interested in the reasoning why you moved from RIMS to HERMS? RIMS is arguably less complex, at least from a parts count perspective. This was one of your design goals, correct?

Obviously there have been many threads on RIMS vs. HERMS, I believe both have their strong points.
I like the idea of the HERMS using the coil as both a way to keep the mash at temp and to cool the wort. If I go with Natural Gas then it would also be easier to just use that instead of gas+electric. So if I can make the system more efficient in terms of operation and equipment involved by using the HERMS to at least partially cool the wort then I think I would be better off.

I know that the HLT full of ice water may not cool the wort to the exact temp I need and may require more ice or an additional cooling device. I still think it is a pretty cool idea though.

also I plan on having a motorized stir arm to agitate the HLT (and kettle maybe too) which should help with consistent temps when using the coil.
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Old 05-21-2009, 07:11 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by Joe Camel View Post
There are two ways I can see you keeping your two pot RIMS setup AND getting slightly better efficiency than a no-sparge setup

First Way
1 Drain the first runnings into a pail, this is where the lions share of your sugar is, so take it out of the mix. Recirc the hot water from your HLT/kettle to your MT until it is well mixed, then pump into hlt. Dump first runnings back in and off to the races.

Second Way

Add an elevated cooler above the MLT. Heat your sparge water up in Bk, then pump to cooler and gravity drain in.

Cheers
Er....neither of these is keeping with two vessels though. If you employ a 3rd container, it's a 3 vessel system.
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Old 05-21-2009, 10:59 PM   #39
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Er....neither of these is keeping with two vessels though. If you employ a 3rd container, it's a 3 vessel system.
Er... normally I'd leave the nitpicking to the monkeys at the zoo, but....

There are two designs put forth by the OP on this post, a two vessel RIMS and a 3 vessel HERMS. I wasnt describing my design, I was differentiating between his two designs and providing a solution that would improve the design efficiency. If adding a bucket makes it a 3 vessel system, so be it, I'll have to count all my measuring cups but I think I'm up to a 14 vessel http://www.homebrewtalk.com/images/smilies/buck.gif
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Old 05-22-2009, 12:36 AM   #40
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Isn't the OP sorta like brew-in-a-bag? Think about it for a sec. All the grains and water mashed all at once. Difference is how he's maintaining temps (RIMS vs direct heat) and he's transferring before boiling.

I have actually been playing (in my head) with such a system. If you used a grain bag, you could use a finer crush.

Supposedly, with a mash-out, 75% is "normal" for BiaB.

I have a few PM batches that I will try this way (if I get low eff., just throw in some more extract) and report back.

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