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Old 05-19-2009, 03:13 PM   #21
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Hardly. My point was that I dont want the OP to incorrectly assume 70-80% eff. on the system described when the Brutus 20 doesnt do that even with its hybrid no sparge/batch sparge setup.
Look. I don't want to get in a pissing contest with you. Lonnie himself, on his very own Brutus 20 page, reported 74% efficiency on average with his system.

You're always ragging on people for speaking from hearsay versus first-hand experience. I refer to your countless recent no-chill threads. Less than 2 months ago, you didn't even know what a Brutus 20 was. I do have considerable experience with the setup and know exactly what it can / can not deliver.

There are some definite advantages to the Brutus 20 system and the OP deserves to hear from experienced users, considering his design is already so close.
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Old 05-19-2009, 03:18 PM   #22
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Look. I don't want to get in a pissing contest with you. Lonnie himself, on his very own Brutus 20 page, reported 74% efficiency on average with his system.

You're always ragging on people for speaking from hearsay versus first-hand experience. I refer to your countless recent no-chill threads. Less than 2 months ago, you didn't even know what a Brutus 20 was. I do have considerable experience with the setup and know exactly what it can / can not deliver.

There are some definite advantages to the Brutus 20 system and the OP deserves to hear from experienced users, considering his design is already so close.
Which is exactly why in this thread alone I have said twice... make that now three times. THE OP NEEDS TO BUILD IT AND GET REAL NUMBERS. I already calculated the size of the MLT he will need to do it.

When I am talking 50%-60% that is an opinion, based on the no sparge design in the OP.

There I have said it three times in this thread, build it.... test it, then go from there. Make that 4 times.

FWIW I knew what the Brutus 20 design philosophy was 1.5 YEARS ago... as I considered it and the 10 before I built mine. I assumed that the 20 stood for 20 gallons though, and on that point I was incorrect 2 months ago... good quoting!
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Old 05-19-2009, 03:33 PM   #23
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I think that the OP design holds a lot of promise. Though without knowing his design philosophy and his NEEDS, it is hard to determine what changes, if any, would suit him.

Every system is based on a set of needs and desires. Fortunately for each brewer these are different, thusly the wide ranging variety of brew rigs. Without really knowing what he NEEDS from his design, other than a 10 gallon output, one cannot really give much direction.

So, to keep this thread somewhat on track, can the OP please give more information about the design philosophy? Can you let us know what you NEED out of the system? What do you want it to give you? With that information, we can get a much better idea of what changes, if any, your design may require, instead of speculating.

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Old 05-19-2009, 07:53 PM   #24
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I see what your all saying here. I want efficiency and the way to get it is by sparging. And to do that I need 3 pots and 2 pumps (or 2 levels and 1 pump)

If I have to use 3 pots (I was just trying to make the parts and size less complex and smaller) then I might as well go with the HERMS system which can double as a wort chiller/ preheat water for brewing multiple batches.

What do you guys think of my HERMS design?

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Old 05-19-2009, 08:03 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by The Pol View Post
I think that the OP design holds a lot of promise. Though without knowing his design philosophy and his NEEDS, it is hard to determine what changes, if any, would suit him.

Every system is based on a set of needs and desires. Fortunately for each brewer these are different, thusly the wide ranging variety of brew rigs. Without really knowing what he NEEDS from his design, other than a 10 gallon output, one cannot really give much direction.

So, to keep this thread somewhat on track, can the OP please give more information about the design philosophy? Can you let us know what you NEED out of the system? What do you want it to give you? With that information, we can get a much better idea of what changes, if any, your design may require, instead of speculating.
I want efficiency and simplicity(to a point). I see some designs with hoses and connectors going everywhere and clusters of valves which only the builder knows which to turn etc like a puzzle. I want to use as few parts as possible to reduce complexity and cost. I plan on electronically controlling all of the valves, motors, and heat sources. This will add it's own complexity and I want to make sure I have a solid working system before I attempt to electronically control it.

I plan on brewing in 10 gallon batches into 2x 5gal corny's fermenting in a chest freezer which can hold 8-9 corny's. I want to eventually brew 2+ batches in a brewing session so things like the HERMS acting as a wort chiller which then preheats strike water is a good design.

I would go with a 2-tier design if I have to or if I think it is more efficient. (like I dont need the extra pump). Basically anything I can do to reduce the number/complexity of parts while still maintaining control over the system is what I am looking for.

You guys have all left some good suggestions so far. Thanks for all of your input!
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Old 05-19-2009, 08:59 PM   #26
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You could go with 1 pump 3 vessels and 5 valves all on a single level with gravity drain through cfc or add 2 valves and use same pump through cfc. This approach would pump water to top of mash in steps then switch pump from filling mash tun to draining. It should be a simple build to automate,3 temperature sensors, 1 float switch for mash tun level, and 5 -7 valves for fluid switching.

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Old 05-19-2009, 09:31 PM   #27
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+10 I've never been impressed with high efficiency claims and generally don't believe them anyway. It's the end product that counts.
You said it my friend!

Yea, I usually can get 75 from my system in the 20 configuration. Not bad at all... I have come up with a few tricks to make that even better but I TRULY could usually give a rats a$$ about eff as long as I am to the point to where I don't think that I am actually wasting money vs making better beer... I am very glad someone is getting some use out of the idea! I have always believed in the opposite end of the dirty laundry theory even more... You can indeed wash too much from your grain bill as well...

Now, we have to loose the CRDFM thing... I must have been drunk naming that! I'm starting to like cross-continuos re-sparge heated mash gadget system much better!
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Old 05-20-2009, 01:20 PM   #28
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You could go with 1 pump 3 vessels and 5 valves all on a single level with gravity drain through cfc or add 2 valves and use same pump through cfc. This approach would pump water to top of mash in steps then switch pump from filling mash tun to draining. It should be a simple build to automate,3 temperature sensors, 1 float switch for mash tun level, and 5 -7 valves for fluid switching.
I'm not much of a process engineer, ajd I couldn't make it all happen with just 7 valves, so can you supply a pic or two or a schematic?

Oh, and are you meaning 7 will do a seperate HEX system, or HEX in HLT?
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Old 05-20-2009, 01:31 PM   #29
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Yorg, I don't think you can effectively layer the entire sparge on top of the mash and expect it to stay stratified. The sugar is going to start diffusing in immediately and it will take time to get it all in there under the suggested "careful" movement of the water. It would probably yield slightly better efficiency than a deliberately equalized brutus 20 style, but I don't see a big advantage over adding a 3rd vessel. That's also a lot of weight on top of the mash. Wouldn't you get crazy compaction? Hey, you can catch the runnings in an ale pail on this system until the HLT is empty too.
OK, but if Blackheart wanted to keep exploring the two vessel option, how about:
-Free up the HLT/Kettle by gently, but not so slowly depositing sparge water on top of the mash.
-Drain quickly the sweet wort in the lower portion of the tun.
-Slow sparge the rest.

By the way, I don't think the sweet wort would difuse that quickly or regular slow flysparging wouldn't work as it does - progressively delivering sugar from grain, rather than equalising/drawing it from the liquid further down.

But Pol is right. Why don't I try it, and stop speculating.
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Old 05-20-2009, 02:04 PM   #30
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Yorg, you're right. Try it out. The more I think of it, if you can keep the grainbed from compacting under the weight of the water (to the point you don't stick the runoff) it should work no problem. The limitation is certainly the size of the mash tun which would have to be about twice the size of the desired finished batch.

Blackheart, in order to save one pump, you can either go with two tiers to use gravity for one of the transfer functions in fly sparging or you can keep it all on one level and batch sparge. That's how my system is currently setup though I use no automated temp control at all (not that it couldn't).

I personally don't care for tons of hard plumbing and a matrix of valves that have to be turned just right. That's why I have two hoses on my pump with quick disconnects on everything.

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